C&D entry level sports sedan comparo.

[565]

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012-audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd-comparison-tests

3 series wins, but the G25 does much better here than in MT.

"And yet, the G25 managed a third-place finish by  virtue of  its best-in-class handling and steering feel. No other sedan here could match the tactility and natural feedback coming through the G?s three-spoke steering wheel. There are times when the G25?s lively and sometimes tail-happy chassis makes you think you?re in a Nissan 370Z. Goodyear Eagle RS-A all-season tires break away with plenty of warning and cling hard enough to the skidpad to allow the G25 to match the grip of the summer-tire-equipped A4. Despite the low-energy powerplant, the G will hustle down any mountain road"

I think that BMW's new electric steering is hurting them.

"The most glaring difference between 3-series new and old is the new electric power steering?s feedback. First, it?s far lighter than before. That?s not necessarily a bad thing. That the electric power steering doesn?t offer much feedback or feel is a bad thing, though. At least it is accurate, allowing you to place the car precisely in a corner without lost motion. Our beef is that the primary communication between driver and road?the steering?is now pleading the Fifth. Please, BMW, remedy this fault.

What we?re left with is a 328i whose ?personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we?d grown to love the old personality. "

[GoCougs]

Kinda odd the role reversal, as MT doesn't tend to trash cars like that from what I remember, it's usually that C&D that does. The MT write-up says the staff had an hour-long argument as to which car finished dead last - the G25 or the Regal.

[565]

Kinda odd the role reversal, as MT doesn't tend to trash cars like that from what I remember, it's usually that C&D that does. The MT write-up says the staff had an hour-long argument as to which car finished dead last - the G25 or the Regal.

I think it reflects the different attitudes in both magazines.  C&D is very steady in their preference of driving involvement above pretty much all else.  MT fluctuates alot in what they deem most important.  This year they ragged on the G25 for slow acceleration and the interior.

Also it seems that MT tends to embrace the new.  Usually the newest car wins.  C&D tends to avoid the new, usually claiming the new car isn't as good as the one it replaces (as is the case with this one, they claim the old 328 is better). 

[GoCougs]

Very astute observation (MT xxxx of the Year vs. C&D 10 best list) - MT does seem fleeting in its preferences.

I've driven all those cars at some point save the Regal. I prefer the G. One aspect I like about the G, that his wholly immaterial yet not present in the class and scarcely elsewhere in automobiledom, is the curvacious fenders as one looks out the windshield (not nearly as much as a Corvette, but still prominent). That combined with the VQ growl and 330 hp pushes the G's overall driving experience to the head of the class (at least for me).

[CJ]

I'm not really surprised the S60 T6 placed dead last.  It was equipped with the touring suspension, in addition to lacking the 4C option, which sharpens that car up by a large margin.  The T5 is supposedly a sharper car anyway.

[850CSi]

What we?re left with is a 328i whose ?personality is less distinct than that of the car it replaces, and we?d grown to love the old personality. "

E90 > F30

[Vinsanity]

Throw the A4 into a corner, and the front end plows delicately and predictably. It?s not the most joyous way around a bend, but it is repeatable and secure and requires very ?little skill.  Joy in the A4 means going faster and sweating less.

Wow. I don't fancy myself the "purist", but that sounds extremely boring. If this is the driving character I'm after, I might as well go with the Merc (which btw, looks fabulous in that drifting action shot. Reminds me of the photos I take in Forza), or even the Volvo.

[sportyaccordy]

E46 ZHP please.

Next 3er will be a hybrid with CVT. But will have better performance and a turbo, so all will be right with the world.

No fucking thanks.

[LonghornTX]

E46 ZHP please.

Next 3er will be a hybrid with CVT. But will have better performance and a turbo, so all will be right with the world.

No fucking thanks.

The ZHP was a very very special car. Possibly the best non-M 3 series ever made. I still remember how nice the clutch and shifter was in that car, and the way the alcantara wheel felt. The exhaust had just enough burble, and it felt quick, even fast.

[cawimmer430]

Why does BMW and Driver magazine even bother testing other brands against the 3er? We all know the outcome in the end, especially with this magazine.

Hell, they could throw in a Honda Accord into this pot as well and the finishing would be:

1st place: BMW 3-Series
2nd place: Honda Accord
3rd to 99th place: Everyone else!

There's no fun in reading these reviews anymore since we know they're so BMW biased. Hell, I stopped reading C&D online after they tested some base model Mitsubishi Lancer and Toyota Corolla and talked about their "crappy handling on race tracks"... 

[sportyaccordy]

Why does BMW and Driver magazine even bother testing other brands against the 3er? We all know the outcome in the end, especially with this magazine.

Hell, they could throw in a Honda Accord into this pot as well and the finishing would be:

1st place: BMW 3-Series
2nd place: Honda Accord
3rd to 99th place: Everyone else!

There's no fun in reading these reviews anymore since we know they're so BMW biased. Hell, I stopped reading C&D online after they tested some base model Mitsubishi Lancer and Toyota Corolla and talked about their "crappy handling on race tracks"...  

You wouldn't be questioning their journalistic integrity if it were "Benz & Driver"...

And can you provide a link to this Corolla + Lancer article? They didn't take these sport sedans to a track so I'm confused as to why they would take some econoboxes. Plus neither the Corolla nor Lancer have been updated in years, and thus haven't been included in any comparisons recently. So long story short I think you're lying.

Here is their last econobox test. No mention of race track performance or whatever the fuck you were going on about. The car that won wasn't even the best performer.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11-chevrolet-cruze-and-12-ford-focus-vs-jetta-elantra-and-mazda-3-comparison-test

Though to be fair, in a comparison of SPORT sedans, it would make sense that PERFORMANCE would be a main priority... though again, they didn't take these cars to the track, and the fastest cars didn't win. Your beloved C-Class is a bit of a dud anyway; if you want luxury the ES is a better buy... if you want sport the 3 series or G37 are the obvious picks.

I get that C&D has a thing for Bimmers & performance but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be, and they give respect when its due. They're not that biased... at least nowhere as biased as you

[Raza]

Wow, for winning the comparison, they seemed to have a lot more negative to say about the 328i than positive.  From the words on the page, the Audi seemed like the clear winner.

[Xer0]

Why does BMW and Driver magazine even bother testing other brands against the 3er? We all know the outcome in the end, especially with this magazine.

Hell, they could throw in a Honda Accord into this pot as well and the finishing would be:

1st place: BMW 3-Series
2nd place: Honda Accord
3rd to 99th place: Everyone else!

There's no fun in reading these reviews anymore since we know they're so BMW biased. Hell, I stopped reading C&D online after they tested some base model Mitsubishi Lancer and Toyota Corolla and talked about their "crappy handling on race tracks"... 

Well, BMW has historically made the best sports sedans and in a publication that caters to the enthusiast who places value on sport (save the manuals! And all that jazz) it should come to absolutely no surprise that the sportier BMW should win far more times than not.  But, they have called BMW out on their bluff plenty of times.  Recently, the 5 has been pretty panned by C&D, the 3 series got a less than glowing review here, and the old 7 was always regulated to mid pack in their comparisons.  VW/Audi is quickly becoming the new BMW in Car and Driver and it isn?t for any reason other than that they build great cars.  It?s like when people complained about Honda/Acura bias a few years ago.  While the conspiracy theorist will tell you that it?s because they stopped buy advertising, the truth is that they just stopped making good cars.

As long as BMW makes a good car (and by all intents and purposes they still do) they will continue winning these things.  In fact, it really is the only outcome.

Wow, for winning the comparison, they seemed to have a lot more negative to say about the 328i than positive.  From the words on the page, the Audi seemed like the clear winner.

[cawimmer430]

You wouldn't be questioning their journalistic integrity if it were "Benz & Driver"...

And can you provide a link to this Corolla + Lancer article? They didn't take these sport sedans to a track so I'm confused as to why they would take some econoboxes. Plus neither the Corolla nor Lancer have been updated in years, and thus haven't been included in any comparisons recently. So long story short I think you're lying.

Here is their last econobox test. No mention of race track performance or whatever the fuck you were going on about. The car that won wasn't even the best performer.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/11-chevrolet-cruze-and-12-ford-focus-vs-jetta-elantra-and-mazda-3-comparison-test

Though to be fair, in a comparison of SPORT sedans, it would make sense that PERFORMANCE would be a main priority... though again, they didn't take these cars to the track, and the fastest cars didn't win. Your beloved C-Class is a bit of a dud anyway; if you want luxury the ES is a better buy... if you want sport the 3 series or G37 are the obvious picks.

I get that C&D has a thing for Bimmers & performance but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be, and they give respect when its due. They're not that biased... at least nowhere as biased as you

A Benz-biased magazine would never grade cars on driving dynamics alone. They'd claim that the _____________ [insert MB product here] is a competent handler, fun in its own way, is comfortable, safe, well-made etc.

I really could care less who wins these comparisons - because in virtually all publications the best-handling cars always win. Problem is the majority of people buying these cars, including the 3er, could care less. They buy the car because of its design and looks, status, emotional appeal etc. but driving dynamics are generally not part of the equation: and if they are rest assured that these cars will never be driven to their limits by 99% of owners.


And that Lancer vs Corolla review is from many years back, when most of us were still posting on the C&D Forums and making the move to go over to Carspin.

[cawimmer430]

Well, BMW has historically made the best sports sedans and in a publication that caters to the enthusiast who places value on sport (save the manuals! And all that jazz) it should come to absolutely no surprise that the sportier BMW should win far more times than not.  But, they have called BMW out on their bluff plenty of times.  Recently, the 5 has been pretty panned by C&D, the 3 series got a less than glowing review here, and the old 7 was always regulated to mid pack in their comparisons.  VW/Audi is quickly becoming the new BMW in Car and Driver and it isn?t for any reason other than that they build great cars.  It?s like when people complained about Honda/Acura bias a few years ago.  While the conspiracy theorist will tell you that it?s because they stopped buy advertising, the truth is that they just stopped making good cars.

You're right. I'm not saying that the 3er shouldn't win, but it's just silly to me personally when EVERY review out there focuses on sport and handling and ignores the things that actually matter. It's getting a bit silly all the time how these publications are literally trying to tell the manufacturers to make their cars sporty and handle well for the mere 5% of buyers in every class who actually care about driving.

[Xer0]

You're right. I'm not saying that the 3er shouldn't win, but it's just silly to me personally when EVERY review out there focuses on sport and handling and ignores the things that actually matter. It's getting a bit silly all the time how these publications are literally trying to tell the manufacturers to make their cars sporty and handle well for the mere 5% of buyers in every class who actually care about driving.

Well, it?s not just the magazines.  I?m sure BMW realized one day, long ago, that it couldn?t compete head to head with MB when it comes to luxury so they differentiated themselves by being sporty.  While people may not know which wheels are being driven, or how many cylinders their engine has, they know how their care feels when they drive it and that feeling that BMW has over MB has allowed it to build up a great reputation that pretty much sells its cars (unless it?s the 5GT, but that car is useless). 

Take your 1 series.  Most owners think its FWD and have no clue what the car has under its hood.  But, I bet if you gave them a FWD 1 series they would be able to feel a difference in the way it drives.  That?s important and that?s what BMW sells on.  And it sure isn?t just 5% of the population, if it was, BMW wouldn?t be where it is today.   

[cawimmer430]

Well, it?s not just the magazines.  I?m sure BMW realized one day, long ago, that it couldn?t compete head to head with MB when it comes to luxury so they differentiated themselves by being sporty.  While people may not know which wheels are being driven, or how many cylinders their engine has, they know how their care feels when they drive it and that feeling that BMW has over MB has allowed it to build up a great reputation that pretty much sells its cars (unless it?s the 5GT, but that car is useless). 

I can see how a sporty drive can still be tolerated in these cars, after all many younger people also buy them and they may generally be more inclined to look for the sportiest alternative here. But in my experience all cars in this class are sporty and handle well in their own way: the leader of the pack in terms of driving dynamics is (and has always been) the 3er. So it handles and drives the best. Cool. Still doesn't mean I want one because of those characteristics.

But in the 5er/E-Class segment I think that matters less to buyers. And I think the proof is in the fact that BMW softened up the 5er to make it more competitive with the E-Class in certain markets.

The thing with BMWs is that they're generally low on interior space compared to their competition. I was checking out the last generation 3er Touring, A4 Avant and C-Class T-Modell as a potential next car (I need more space) and the C-Class blew both the BMW and Audi away in terms of luggage space and rear leg space. Placing the engine behind the front axle the way BMW does takes away precious interior space for the sake of handling and weight balance. In terms of dynamics the C-Class might be less capable than the A4 and 3er, but where it actually matters, it beats them: in this case, interior space and luggage space.

Take your 1 series.  Most owners think its FWD and have no clue what the car has under its hood.  But, I bet if you gave them a FWD 1 series they would be able to feel a difference in the way it drives.  That?s important and that?s what BMW sells on.  And it sure isn?t just 5% of the population, if it was, BMW wouldn?t be where it is today.   

I actually wouldn't mind a FWD 1er. 

Most people here buy them because they're practical and ideal for city use and the BMW badge means it's a quality product that's also safe etc.

[WookieOnRitalin]

I'm not really surprised the S60 T6 placed dead last.  It was equipped with the touring suspension, in addition to lacking the 4C option, which sharpens that car up by a large margin.  The T5 is supposedly a sharper car anyway.

Does the R-spec come with a T5?

[Xer0]

I can see how a sporty drive can still be tolerated in these cars, after all many younger people also buy them and they may generally be more inclined to look for the sportiest alternative here. But in my experience all cars in this class are sporty and handle well in their own way: the leader of the pack in terms of driving dynamics is (and has always been) the 3er. So it handles and drives the best. Cool. Still doesn't mean I want one because of those characteristics.

I never said you did, but, you?re being disingenuous when you say only 5% of the population does.  The 3er doesn?t become the most popular entry lux/sport sedan in the world on the back of 5% of the population.  It just doesn?t work that way.

Most people here buy them because they're practical and ideal for city use and the BMW badge means it's a quality product that's also safe etc.

While I don?t doubt that to be true, I?m sure an equal number of people buy them for how they drive as well.  Keep in mind, everything else in that class is FWD with worse weight distribution than the 1er so at minimum it drives differently then the competition.  The 1er isn?t exactly the cheapest or most practical hatch in its class, but it is pretty successful and that has to be for some reason.  Part of that is the way it drives; people appreciate it even if they can?t quite describe why.

I think you are undervaluing how much emphasis people put on a ?sporty? car and interjecting your opinion in place of the ?most? people you talk about.  Its fine, everyone has a preference, but sports and sporty cars wouldn?t be this popular if they were truly a dying breed.  In just about every class you will have the comfortable choice and the sporty alternative and both will sell equally well and there is good reason for that; because people value sport.

[Raza]

But in the 5er/E-Class segment I think that matters less to buyers. And I think the proof is in the fact that BMW softened up the 5er to make it more competitive with the E-Class in certain markets.

My mother still says that of all the cars she's owned, her favorite was her old 5 series.  It was better to drive (by her standards, not mine) than anything else she's had.  I want to say it was an E34, in light blue, a 525i.  And we're talking about a car she had almost 20 years ago.  Lexus, Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercury, and Mercedes have all been her daily drivers since then, and the E34 is still her favorite to drive.  My mother is not a sporty driver.

[sportyaccordy]

You're right. I'm not saying that the 3er shouldn't win, but it's just silly to me personally when EVERY review out there focuses on sport and handling and ignores the things that actually matter.

Sport + handling matter to the folks reading these magazines. If not they'd be reading...

*drumroll please*

CONSUMER REPORTS!

But you hate Consumer Reports too, again because they don't prioritize the same things you do (that happen to be all the intangibles that make Benzes your favorite).

All you beef comes down to is magazines and other enthusiasts not buying into your line of thinking. Having your own line of thinking is fine, but dismissing the credibility of everyone + everything that disagrees is bogus

[cawimmer430]

I never said you did, but, you?re being disingenuous when you say only 5% of the population does.  The 3er doesn?t become the most popular entry lux/sport sedan in the world on the back of 5% of the population.  It just doesn?t work that way.

Of course not. There are various demographics that make up the 3-Series buyers (just like all other cars in this niche): young-, middle-aged, and old-folks, cheerleaders and college chicks [and guys] etc. 

It's still safe to say that a very small amount of people who buy a 3er actually care about driving dynamics. They see the badge and hear the words "BMW" and that's what hooks them up.

While I don?t doubt that to be true, I?m sure an equal number of people buy them for how they drive as well.  Keep in mind, everything else in that class is FWD with worse weight distribution than the 1er so at minimum it drives differently then the competition.  The 1er isn?t exactly the cheapest or most practical hatch in its class, but it is pretty successful and that has to be for some reason.  Part of that is the way it drives; people appreciate it even if they can?t quite describe why.

True. The 1er does drive nicely. But many buyers in Europe are giving BMW feedback that the 1er is a bit small on interior [leg] space mostly because of the RWD layout. It's this feedback which is pretty much guaranteeing that the 3rd generation 1-Series will be FWD. I've even heard some confirmation about this from a buddy who works in the BMW engine development division. They're working on a transverse engine-transmission layout for the 3rd generation 1er.

It's safe to say most people who own a 1er don't care about driving dynamics much. I'm sort off in the middle. When the car is empty it's fun to blast down on corners etc. But my car is usually filled with my gear so I don't speed through corners on backroads most of the time.

I think you are undervaluing how much emphasis people put on a ?sporty? car and interjecting your opinion in place of the ?most? people you talk about.  Its fine, everyone has a preference, but sports and sporty cars wouldn?t be this popular if they were truly a dying breed.  In just about every class you will have the comfortable choice and the sporty alternative and both will sell equally well and there is good reason for that; because people value sport.

Sport is also subjective.

I've driven plenty of W204 C-Classes for instance and found them to be sporty cars. Dynamically competent and fun in their own way. Better than a 3er? Nope. But perhaps better balanced because they offer a nice blend between sport and comfort.

In fact one of the employees at BMW Welt told me the new "Lines" (Sport, Luxury and Modern) for the 3er are a direct result from Mercedes and their lines for the C/E-Classes (Classic, Elegance and Avantgarde). BMW is now offering their 3er customers more individualization opportunities. An older client can order a more comfort-biased 3er Luxury for example whereas someone from Carspin can order a sports-biased 3er Sport.

[cawimmer430]

My mother still says that of all the cars she's owned, her favorite was her old 5 series.  It was better to drive (by her standards, not mine) than anything else she's had.  I want to say it was an E34, in light blue, a 525i.  And we're talking about a car she had almost 20 years ago.  Lexus, Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercedes, Mercury, and Mercedes have all been her daily drivers since then, and the E34 is still her favorite to drive.  My mother is not a sporty driver.

Personal preference. 

[cawimmer430]

Sport + handling matter to the folks reading these magazines. If not they'd be reading...

*drumroll please*

CONSUMER REPORTS!

But you hate Consumer Reports too, again because they don't prioritize the same things you do (that happen to be all the intangibles that make Benzes your favorite).

All you beef comes down to is magazines and other enthusiasts not buying into your line of thinking. Having your own line of thinking is fine, but dismissing the credibility of everyone + everything that disagrees is bogus

I've read some weird things about Consumer Reports and how they grade cars and that put me off them.

I mean if a car has a "difficult controls" it's not recommended? Whoa? Really? Because those "difficult controls" can be learned and once an owner becomes accustomed to their car it's not a problem at all.

In January I got HD-Digital TV. I learned how to use the TV and remote without even reading the instruction manual. The first few weeks I had some trouble operating the remote in low light conditions because it's black with white letterings. Now I can use and operate that thing in pitch blackness.

[sportyaccordy]

I've read some weird things about Consumer Reports and how they grade cars and that put me off them.

I mean if a car has a "difficult controls" it's not recommended? Whoa? Really? Because those "difficult controls" can be learned and once an owner becomes accustomed to their car it's not a problem at all.

In January I got HD-Digital TV. I learned how to use the TV and remote without even reading the instruction manual. The first few weeks I had some trouble operating the remote in low light conditions because it's black with white letterings. Now I can use and operate that thing in pitch blackness.

Just like with C&D, if CR dismissed non-Benzes for bullshit reasons you wouldn't care. If your favorite cars don't win, all the reasoning is BS. Its cheap + transparent.

Regarding the TV. Did you consider that you might be more technically savvy than the average person? Ah then you default to more protective reasoning. "If something is badly designed and I like it, any problems with its operation are the fault of the owner". So in this case I am sure you will say if someone else has trouble with your TV, its cause they're dumb, not cause the TV is bad. I remember you blaming Americans for the demise of Alfa/Renault/Peugeot. Like there was no way the cars could suck. They did.

You seem to buy things by going brand first, other shit later. Other people compare things. Rags like C&D and CR help people do that. Its very simple.

[850CSi]

ITT Wimmer argues that driving enthusiast magazines shouldn't compare cars based on how they... drive.


Though I tend to agree with him that almost no one buys BMWs based on how they... drive.

[850CSi]

The ZHP was a very very special car. Possibly the best non-M 3 series ever made. I still remember how nice the clutch and shifter was in that car, and the way the alcantara wheel felt. The exhaust had just enough burble, and it felt quick, even fast.

I fucking want one. In coupe form. I think I like the coupes of every 3-series generation more than the sedan. Though on the E46, and only the E46 [well maybe the E36 as well], the cabrio is my favorite.

[CJ]

Does the R-spec come with a T5?

Nope.  Just a T6 R-Design. 325 HP, more torque.  They scoot.

[LonghornTX]

I fucking want one. In coupe form. I think I like the coupes of every 3-series generation more than the sedan. Though on the E46, and only the E46 [well maybe the E36 as well], the cabrio is my favorite.

I like the ci better on every E46 model BUT the ZHP. I don't like the way the body kit looked...And my dad has a 330ci that I absolutely still love.

The cabrio E46 looks good, but drives pretty much differently than the others. Especially the M3. Don't ever get an E46 M3 cabrio, it completely ruins the car IMO

[sportyaccordy]

I don't like the E46 coupe. Just not aggressive enough, coming from the E36. Same with the E92 TBH. The best looking 3s to me are the E30 coupe, the E36 coupe and the E90 sedan (w/sport or lowered suspension). Still though, all great cars, but it seems they kind of peaked with the non-Ms in the E46.