Lexus ES!

[CALL_911]

Actually, I always thought this was a pretty decent looking car (the facelifted one only).

[SVT_Power]

I guess I'm the minority who thinks the new ES actually looks quite good

[Cookie Monster]

I guess I'm the minority who thinks the new ES actually looks quite good

No I think it looks awesome.

I don't get where the bland/vanilla comments are coming from, though.

[sportyaccordy]

I guess I'm the minority who thinks the new ES actually looks quite good

Def not, dare I say its more bold than all the midsize German offerings, at least from these little pictures

[cawimmer430]

Yeah, you are. You like the C-Class more than the 3er (which you seem to somewhat dislike solely because it's more acclaimed than your beloved MB) because it's "more comfortable."

Funny. Everyone praises the 3er for its driving dynamics which are class leading, yet most people don't even buy a 3er for that feature. They buy them for the badge. That's true for all premium brands.

And to me the C-Class is the better car for my needs, which are not blasting down backroads because C&D said I should. I require more interior/luggage space and a C-Class offers more of that in both sedan and wagon form, just because the engine isn't pushed back behind the front axle.

So what are my priorities? Driving dynamics or overall practicality? C-Class wins for me because it offers what I need. I have nothing against the 3er. I just don't need or want one.

This, from a luxury standpoint, shits on the C-Class. It's probably better built too, to boot. Only reason you don't like it is because its a Lexus, which, in turn, you don't like because they've been shitting on MB for a while now.

[Raza]

I guess I'm the minority who thinks the new ES actually looks quite good

Blinded by the badge and platform.  It looks good, but I'd never own one.

[CJ]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-LEXUS-ES-300-3-0L-V6-SUNROOF-HTD-LEATHER-ONLY-50K-/400288473827?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item5d330d62e3#ht_23577wt_1165

[Raza]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-LEXUS-ES-300-3-0L-V6-SUNROOF-HTD-LEATHER-ONLY-50K-/400288473827?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item5d330d62e3#ht_23577wt_1165

 

[CALL_911]

You know I'm right.

[FoMoJo]

Do they only come in the one colour?

[850CSi]

You know I'm right.

You're seeing things in black and white. This is probably a better boring pure-lux mobile than a C-Klasse, but it's not either/or.

[GoCougs]

You know I'm right.

Yup.

[sportyaccordy]

Funny. Everyone praises the 3er for its driving dynamics which are class leading, yet most people don't even buy a 3er for that feature. They buy them for the badge. That's true for all premium brands.

And to me the C-Class is the better car for my needs, which are not blasting down backroads because C&D said I should. I require more interior/luggage space and a C-Class offers more of that in both sedan and wagon form, just because the engine isn't pushed back behind the front axle.

So what are my priorities? Driving dynamics or overall practicality? C-Class wins for me because it offers what I need. I have nothing against the 3er. I just don't need or want one.

The new 3er is roomier than the C in every interior dimension

and has more trunk space (17.0 vs 12.4 cu ft)

So I'm kind of confused as to what you're talking about... if space is your priority the 3er is the better choice

By any objective measure the F30 is a better car than the W204... and its handily outsold it year after year despite being so "aggressive".... if you like the Benz because its a Benz thats fine, but stop trying to discredit anyone who sees how obvious the Bimmer's objective superiority is.

Likewise you can gripe all you want about Lexus being "boring", but I'm not sure how a run of the mill E350 is like $10-20K more exciting. An ES a good luxury car, period, nobody cares about H&H

[thewizard16]

I like this new ES overall. The snout looks weird from that front side profile angle though, I don't care for the car from that angle.

That's hilarious, because they are the same car.

If it was a simple rebadge, sure. Having the same (or mostly the same, I guess they may have changed some little things) mechanical bits doesn't make it the same car however, and I agree with iffy that this new model shares the least resemblance with its Camry cousin of any ES generation so far. They both have four doors, are the same size, and the new Camry's grille actually almost has a spindle-ish look itself I had never noticed before (if the two parts were connected like in the ES at those angles it would look very similar), but beyond that they look pretty different.  

[Madman]

Meh.  Generic looking blob.  Remove the badge and it could be damn near anything. 

[cawimmer430]

The new 3er is roomier than the C in every interior dimension

and has more trunk space (17.0 vs 12.4 cu ft)

So I'm kind of confused as to what you're talking about... if space is your priority the 3er is the better choice

By any objective measure the F30 is a better car than the W204... and its handily outsold it year after year despite being so "aggressive".... if you like the Benz because its a Benz thats fine, but stop trying to discredit anyone who sees how obvious the Bimmer's objective superiority is.

I'm talking about the wagons and I'm not talking about the new 3er vs the "old" W204 C-Class.

When the BMW 118i had its steering system replaced (a common defect on the 1-Series in Europe), I got a ride home in a 3er Touring and all my equipment in the 1er was put into the back of the 3ers trunk: it barely fit. Half my shit had to be stored on the rear seats. The trunk of the 3er Touring was narrow and small. The S204 C-Class wagon on the other hand had a nice wide and roomy trunk. I visited the local Benz dealer on purpose to test if my stuff fit and I managed to fit more of my gear into the back than I did in the 3er Touring. C-Class wins for me based on that.

And I'll say it again. I've driven a few W204 C-Classes. They're comfortable and they drive good. They can be driven in a sporty fashion and they're competent in that regard. That's all I need, so I don't need a 3er or an A4. In fact I don't care much about driving dynamics because I tend to drive in a relaxed and elegant manner. I don't care if a 3er drives better, so what? It's not what I am looking for.

[sportyaccordy]

I'm talking about the wagons and I'm not talking about the new 3er vs the "old" W204 C-Class.

Then what are you talking about? The W204 is the current model

When the BMW 118i had its steering system replaced (a common defect on the 1-Series in Europe), I got a ride home in a 3er Touring and all my equipment in the 1er was put into the back of the 3ers trunk: it barely fit. Half my shit had to be stored on the rear seats. The trunk of the 3er Touring was narrow and small. The S204 C-Class wagon on the other hand had a nice wide and roomy trunk. I visited the local Benz dealer on purpose to test if my stuff fit and I managed to fit more of my gear into the back than I did in the 3er Touring. C-Class wins for me based on that.

So you just said you didn't want to compare the new 3 to the "old" (???) C class, but now you are comparing the latest C-class to the old (E91) 3er? 

And I'll say it again. I've driven a few W204 C-Classes. They're comfortable and they drive good. They can be driven in a sporty fashion and they're competent in that regard. That's all I need, so I don't need a 3er or an A4. In fact I don't care much about driving dynamics because I tend to drive in a relaxed and elegant manner. I don't care if a 3er drives better, so what? It's not what I am looking for.

Driving dynamics is not just at the limit performance and feel, it's also ride comfort and general confidence. Just like your 1 series, there are "non enthusiast" spec 3s, and by any metric the F30 is better in those regards too. Just as comfortable, roomier, more economical to run, not much more (if at all) expensive. So stop acting like one is sacrificing anything in getting a 3er over a C-Class. The C is inferior in more than performance, it's just inferior period, and if it wasn't a Mercedes you wouldn't care about it. If the BMW was badged a Benz you would be celebrating its dominance and applauding the magazines that deemed it #1. You have this irrational need to defend Benz and discredit anyone/anything that doesn't see things the way you do. Its goofy as hell.

The W204 is not a bad car but its in no way the best car in class, except for folks who prefer Mercedes' as a brand emotionally.

[sportyaccordy]

And for someone who values space, fuel economy, and comfort, the ES will definitely be a better buy than an equivalent C class

[Raza]

The new 3er is roomier than the C in every interior dimension

and has more trunk space (17.0 vs 12.4 cu ft)

So I'm kind of confused as to what you're talking about... if space is your priority the 3er is the better choice

17 cubic feet of trunk space!?  Holy shit.  I always considered my trunk to be cavernous, and it's 15 cubic feet.

[sportyaccordy]

17 cubic feet of trunk space!?  Holy shit.  I always considered my trunk to be cavernous, and it's 15 cubic feet.

Thats what they say. I imagine the F3x wagon will similarly dominate the W204 wagon in trunk space too.

The 3er is longer + wider than the C which prob helps too.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Thats what they say. I imagine the F3x wagon will similarly dominate the W204 wagon in trunk space too.

The 3er is longer + wider than the C which prob helps too.

You say F3xW2043erC... I say FX-16 GT-S

[2o6]

Now Lexus needs to do the IS in a sexy fashion, and we're good!

[thewizard16]

Now Lexus needs to do the IS in a sexy fashion, and we're good!

I like the current IS. It was the first Lexus sedan I considered sporty/good looking overall in ... maybe ever.

[SVT_Power]

I like the current IS. It was the first Lexus sedan I considered sporty/good looking overall in ... maybe ever.

The first gen IS is probably the best driving lexus so far, save for the LFA. But I do suppose it's not much of a sporty looking car

[TurboDan]

Funny. Everyone praises the 3er for its driving dynamics which are class leading, yet most people don't even buy a 3er for that feature. They buy them for the badge. That's true for all premium brands.

Wow, so false. 3er has more space, and it's contained in an interior that doesn't resemble a mid 2000s Acura.

And YES, most people DO choose the Beamer bc of its driving dynamics. As I've said, the average buyer can't always articulate it, but they can tell the BMW is a better driving car than the Benz. And honestly, it has a more Spartan, but desirable, interior. Been that way for years.

[Raza]

I like the current IS. It was the first Lexus sedan I considered sporty/good looking overall in ... maybe ever.

I do like it as well.  Shame that their dealer networks never stock manuals and mostly only stock AWD models in this part of the country or I would have considered an IS250 instead of my Jetta.  But, when it comes down to it, my Jetta makes the same power from a turbo engine and weighs about the same, if not less, so I think I'm better off.  2 to 1 it handles better than the IS250 too, since they tend to keep the sporty stuff for the auto-only 350.

[sportyaccordy]

I don't think you could deal with the low power of the IS250. Its heavier + less torquey than your car. The 350 is a fucking rocket though

[cawimmer430]

So you just said you didn't want to compare the new 3 to the "old" (???) C class, but now you are comparing the latest C-class to the old (E91) 3er? 

I'm comparing the "old" E90 WAGON to the current S204 C-Class WAGON.

The current F30 WAGON isn't even out yet. Once it is, then we can talk. And it'll most likely be hampered by the fact that BMW places their engines behind the front axle. No matter how intelligent the interior design, this will always take away some precious interior space.

The C is inferior in more than performance, it's just inferior period, and if it wasn't a Mercedes you wouldn't care about it. If the BMW was badged a Benz you would be celebrating its dominance and applauding the magazines that deemed it #1.

Oh please. The C-Class has good driving dynamics that'll satisfy most people. If you want something sportier there's always a 3er or Infiniti G. Big deal.

I don't drive like crazy, I don't need a 3er and the current S204 wagon offers more interior and luggage space than the E90 Wagon. I don't need to explain which car I would choose here based on what my needs are.

You have this irrational need to defend Benz and discredit anyone/anything that doesn't see things the way you do. Its goofy as hell.

Really?

Guess you missed those posts where I hate on the new M-Class, SLK or SL.

When someone comes along and claims that "every single car in this class needs to try and beat the 3er", then I have a problem with that. Because it's bullshit. The Mercedes C-Class has never tried to be dynamically superior car. It's focus was always on a balance between sport and luxury and it does that quite well.

[cawimmer430]

Wow, so false. 3er has more space, and it's contained in an interior that doesn't resemble a mid 2000s Acura.

Nope. E90 Wagon vs S204 Wagon has less space.

[Raza]

I don't think you could deal with the low power of the IS250. Its heavier + less torquey than your car. The 350 is a fucking rocket though

I see where you're coming from, but you forget.  I was coming from the 1.8T 5AT Passat, a 170bhp, 3400 pound car.  It was a hell of a lot of fun, but not at all fast.  0-60 was mid to low 8s.  But you're right, I'm better off with the Jetta.