So that new GS... It's pretty good.

[cawimmer430]

To the editors + folks who read the magazine, fun to drive = able to drive fast + provide feedback. That's been the culture of the magazine since its inception, and to expect/demand otherwise is stupid.

And most people buying these cars do so for other reasons than "driving". This is another case of a magazine expecting car makers to bow down to their wishes and not the wishes of the market.

If people want a fun RWD car then go buy a BMW 1-Series, Nissan 370Z, Porsche Boxster etc. These are big and overweight sedans. They'll never be as nimble as a smaller car. If you want a true sports sedan in this class: M5, E63 AMG, S6/RS6 and XF-R.

And the Audi had lifeless steering compared to the other cars in the test. That is what they do in COMPARISON tests.... COMPARE the cars to each other.

And "lifeless" is a term that's definitely exaggerated here. At the end of the day these aren't sports sedans: they're sporty, but they're still big and overweight sedans. To me it's idiotic how anyone wants to buy something like this and drive it like they stole it. Most of the time there will probably be a family or other people on board who don't want to be thrown around inside the car.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Because the article is in English and not in Swahili.

[CALL_911]

there were some glaringly cheap materials used on the inside. 

Like what, exactly?

[CALL_911]

And most people buying these cars do so for other reasons than "driving". This is another case of a magazine expecting car makers to bow down to their wishes and not the wishes of the market.

Ignoring the other glaring flaws in your argument, I'd like to begin with the fact that this is their opinion of which car is best in that class.

[Raza]

And most people buying these cars do so for other reasons than "driving". This is another case of a magazine expecting car makers to bow down to their wishes and not the wishes of the market.

If people want a fun RWD car then go buy a BMW 1-Series, Nissan 370Z, Porsche Boxster etc. These are big and overweight sedans. They'll never be as nimble as a smaller car. If you want a true sports sedan in this class: M5, E63 AMG, S6/RS6 and XF-R.

It's often not plausible for someone to own multiple cars or dump an extra $30,000 into a purchase to get a car that's much too powerful for the street anyway and gets significantly worse gas mileage.  Sometimes, a midrange sport luxury car is the one car that has to do everything.

[LonghornTX]

Maybe the new GS is that good now.

It lost to the A7 in C&D...

[sportyaccordy]

And most people buying these cars do so for other reasons than "driving". This is another case of a magazine expecting car makers to bow down to their wishes and not the wishes of the market.

Where in the article did they demand anything? They got the cars and compared them as sports sedans. Just like they always have, and just like their readers always have.

If people want a fun RWD car then go buy a BMW 1-Series, Nissan 370Z, Porsche Boxster etc. These are big and overweight sedans. They'll never be as nimble as a smaller car. If you want a true sports sedan in this class: M5, E63 AMG, S6/RS6 and XF-R.

Like Raza said, some people can only have one car. If what you said was true, the M5 would not be as successful as it is. One could just get a diesel sedan and a Lotus Elise. For whatever reason some people like big fast SPORT sedans, and manufacturers have been catering to them for years. Whether or not you think it's stupid is irrelevant, that's what other people want.

And "lifeless" is a term that's definitely exaggerated here. At the end of the day these aren't sports sedans: they're sporty, but they're still big and overweight sedans. To me it's idiotic how anyone wants to buy something like this and drive it like they stole it. Most of the time there will probably be a family or other people on board who don't want to be thrown around inside the car.

To me it's idiotic that you can't possibly comprehend someone wanting something different than you, but you will never understand why.

Point blank, if you don't like these kinds of magazines/articles, don't read them... Seems stupid as hell to get wound up over nothing, but history shows you love to.

Some people like driving fast. These cars are designed to be driven fast as well as be luxurious. It's not hard to understand.

[Xer0]

Some people like driving fast. These cars are designed to be driven fast as well as be luxurious. It's not hard to understand.

From the looks of it, it is.  Different strokes I guess.  Wimmer can't understand that a car can have apeal to different people for different reasons and at this point people are usually pretty set in their ways.

[sportyaccordy]

From the looks of it, it is.  Different strokes I guess.  Wimmer can't understand that a car can have apeal to different people for different reasons and at this point people are usually pretty set in their ways.

Dude lives in Germany + drives on the autobahn. That is exactly where cars like this are in their element. I think he's being intentionally obtuse

[Raza]

Dude lives in Germany + drives on the autobahn. That is exactly where cars like this are in their element. I think he's being intentionally obtuse

Cue 55mph speed limit argument in 5...4...3...

[Cookie Monster]

You know that since Wimmer's precious German cars didn't win the comparison and was instead won by a Japanese car, and a Lexus at that, he's super butthurt about it.

If the GS had been flamed by the reviewers for being boring to drive, Wimmer would've had a field day, saying how boring and lifeless Lexus is. Instead he is blowing shit out of his ass and blaming the reviewers and trying to say how "fun to drive" is completely subjective.

The trolling is too ridiculous around here.

[sportyaccordy]

You know that since Wimmer's precious German cars didn't win the comparison and was instead won by a Japanese car, and a Lexus at that, he's super butthurt about it.

If the GS had been flamed by the reviewers for being boring to drive, and Wimmer would've had a field day, saying how boring and lifeless Lexus is. Instead he is it blowing shot out of his ass and blaming the reviewers and try going to say how "fun to drive" is completely subjective.

The trolling is too ridiculous around here.

Thats all it comes down to. I remember when dude went off about the Japanese. Dude's got issues.

[cawimmer430]

Dude lives in Germany + drives on the autobahn. That is exactly where cars like this are in their element. I think he's being intentionally obtuse

A 1985 Mercedes 300SE W126 was also in its element on the Autobahn - with extremely vague and lifeless steering. The vague steering wasn't a problem at high speeds.

So a modern Audi A6 with "lifeless steering" will more than be in its element on the Autobahn.

[68_427]

I'd rather feel what my tires are doing.

[cawimmer430]

You know that since Wimmer's precious German cars didn't win the comparison and was instead won by a Japanese car, and a Lexus at that, he's super butthurt about it.

If the GS had been flamed by the reviewers for being boring to drive, and Wimmer would've had a field day, saying how boring and lifeless Lexus is. Instead he is it blowing shot out of his ass and blaming the reviewers and try going to say how "fun to drive" is completely subjective.

The trolling is too ridiculous around here.

Oh please. 

Where have I ever criticized any Lexus for shitty driving dynamics? Show the court some evidence before you make these accusations.

I could care less who wins in these comparisons. Have I even commented or said anything about the winner of this comparison in this thread? NO. I have not. Why? Because I could care less. So the Lexus GS won this comparison. Wow. I'm gonna go out right now and buy one because it's apparently such a good handler and fun to drive. I look forward to the penile erection I'll get when I'm behind the wheel of that car! 

[sportyaccordy]

A 1985 Mercedes 300SE W126 was also in its element on the Autobahn - with extremely vague and lifeless steering. The vague steering wasn't a problem at high speeds.

So a modern Audi A6 with "lifeless steering" will more than be in its element on the Autobahn.

Compared to other cars from its time it was. Now it isn't.

And for the 3rd time, the Audi's steering was lifeless compared to the other cars in the test, not compared to every car ever.

This is seriously retarded.

[cawimmer430]

And for the 3rd time, the Audi's steering was lifeless compared to the other cars in the test, not compared to every car ever.

Understood. It's a POS. Next. 

[Vinsanity]

I could care less who wins in these comparisons.

Oh, but it sounds like you do care. You cared enough to read the article and post about it, didn't you?

[cawimmer430]

Oh, but it sounds like you do care. You cared enough to read the article and post about it, didn't you?

I don't care.

Because I've come to the conclusion that magazines are all about sport, the lowest 0-60 times, skidpad numbers, handling etc. It's lame. I get the feeling they don't appreciate cars for what they are. It's all about "Get Car A because it handles better and is faster than Car B." LAME.


The car magazines I read are more about admiring the beauty of cars, not the performance numbers. Hence this is the reason I subscribe to a car magazine called RAMP. In this magazine the beauty and fascination of cars is the focus, not the performance. In the last RAMP magazine there was a nice report about some bum in the US who travels across the country in a 1980s Chevrolet Caprice wagon - that's also his home. And there was also a story about a guy who has a Ferrari 550 Maranello and a Citroen 2CV as his daily drivers and loves both these cars (and is fascinated by them). Now that's car enthusiasm.

http://www.ramp-magazin.de/


All these other car magazines focus solely on performance. To me that's boring.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Maybe the new GS is that good now.

It seems so

[Xer0]

I don't care.

All these other car magazines focus solely on performance. To me that's boring.

Often times the best performing car doesn't win.  This is another one of those times.  The Audi had the best performance by a considerable margin but came in 3rd.  The Lexus, in comparison, was mid pack and yet it won.  Funny.

You have to understand that sporty isn?t about 0-60 and braking and handling (but those all have a place in there), its about a feeling that the car gives you.  A worse performing car (Miata, BRZ) can be a lot more sporty than these guys because of the way the car makes you feel.  We realize it doesn?t work for you, and that?s fine, we?re not telling you to buy these cars.  But it works for a lot of people out there otherwise these cars wouldn?t be the bread and butter of their respective auto makers.  And also often times people can?t afford to just put an extra 30k down to get an AMG/M/RS/R so these cars have to have a sense of sport in them.  Its unreasonable to expect that when someone puts down 50/60k on a single car that they don?t want some sport in it.  

You need to stop being so close minded and accept that sport has a place in the automotive landscape for a lot of people.  Sometimes they can?t properly describe it, but they can feel how their car drives.

[Cookie Monster]

I don't care.

Because I've come to the conclusion that magazines are all about sport, the lowest 0-60 times, skidpad numbers, handling etc. It's lame. I get the feeling they don't appreciate cars for what they are. It's all about "Get Car A because it handles better and is faster than Car B." LAME.


The car magazines I read are more about admiring the beauty of cars, not the performance numbers. Hence this is the reason I subscribe to a car magazine called RAMP. In this magazine the beauty and fascination of cars is the focus, not the performance. In the last RAMP magazine there was a nice report about some bum in the US who travels across the country in a 1980s Chevrolet Caprice wagon - that's also his home. And there was also a story about a guy who has a Ferrari 550 Maranello and a Citroen 2CV as his daily drivers and loves both these cars (and is fascinated by them). Now that's car enthusiasm.

http://www.ramp-magazin.de/


All these other car magazines focus solely on performance. To me that's boring.

No, they aren't all about performance numbers and handling and "sport" at all. This is a SPORTS sedan comparison. They took the SPORTS model from each company (not the M5, S/RS6, etc, but the sport packages for each car) and then compared how SPORTY they are. That was the whole point of the test. And it's not like they ignored everything else, either. They looked at the luxury appointments and interiors of each car as well. In short they compared everything that the buyer of a SPORTS sedan would want to know about.

They even prove your 'they're all about the numbers' schtick wrong because the Audi was the best performing and still placed second to last, showing that the test wasn't all about numbers like you constantly like to harp about.

I don't understand you beef. You keep on complaining about how magazines are always about numbers or fun to drive. They aren't. In this case that was their main focus, because of the nature of the cars (SPORT sedans, if you couldn't tell). They don't harp on about fun to drive or performance numbers (at least enough to make it a deciding factor in a comparison) with family cars, econoboxes, trucks & minivans, etc. Each category of cars is tested with its own guidelines and expectations, yet you don't understand this for some reason and keep on going on about how the editors are all jaded and spoiled because they "arrive to work in Cayman R's every morning" (which I see you still haven't provided any real proof of).

Again, if a Mercedes Benz (had it been in the test) or the Audi or BMW had won the test, you would be singing a completely different tune right now. Oh and PS, the fact that MB didn't even want to send an E-Class to the comparison shows you how they feel about it vs the competition.

[r0tor]

This seems to bode well for the next IS

[68_427]

This seems to bode well for the next IS

The next IS is supposed to be on a modified FR-S chassis.

[r0tor]

So I should have a good question and now Toyota seems to have figured out steering frl and suspension setup... Good signs

[sportyaccordy]

I don't care.

Because I've come to the conclusion that magazines are all about sport, the lowest 0-60 times, skidpad numbers, handling etc. It's lame. I get the feeling they don't appreciate cars for what they are. It's all about "Get Car A because it handles better and is faster than Car B." LAME.

Bullshit. The Lexus GS was not the fastest car in this test. And there have been various comparisons by American mags where the fastest cars didn't win... ESPECIALLY in comparisons of "normal" cars. And why do you and you alone get to decide what a car "is"?

Plus there's this:

http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=16810.0 Benz won
http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=3924.0 Benz won
http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=21200.0 Bimmer won, but it "didn't count- small victory"
http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=4947.0 Benz won
http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=6361.0 Benz won a C&D match! Funny, now C&D isn't biased??????
http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=21780.0 Benz lost but you cover for it as always
http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=5294.0 Benz won

Etc....

You claim you don't care about comparisons, but have posted a ton where the Benzes just "happen" to always win

The car magazines I read are more about admiring the beauty of cars, not the performance numbers. Hence this is the reason I subscribe to a car magazine called RAMP. In this magazine the beauty and fascination of cars is the focus, not the performance. In the last RAMP magazine there was a nice report about some bum in the US who travels across the country in a 1980s Chevrolet Caprice wagon - that's also his home. And there was also a story about a guy who has a Ferrari 550 Maranello and a Citroen 2CV as his daily drivers and loves both these cars (and is fascinated by them). Now that's car enthusiasm.

http://www.ramp-magazin.de/


All these other car magazines focus solely on performance. To me that's boring.

Its boring, and you don't care, but you've been reading + complaining about them for years.

You care.

[sportyaccordy]

So I should have a good question and now Toyota seems to have figured out steering frl and suspension setup... Good signs

They've always had the talent, just not the motivation.

Funny, the GS went from being an also-ran to the most well rounded car in its class. Great stuff.

[CALL_911]

This seems to bode well for the next IS

Yeah, I'm very excited about it. It's supposed to be based on the GT-86/BRZ.

[sportyaccordy]

Next IS could be what the G was supposed to be.

[SVT_Power]

The next IS is supposed to be on a modified FR-S chassis.

Interesting. Sounds like the IS might be going back towards the first generation

[850CSi]

Its boring, and you don't care, but you've been reading + complaining about them for years.

You care.

ITT Wimmer argues that driving enthusiast magazines shouldn't compare cars based on how they... drive.