Is this the start of the end of our car culture?

[GoCougs]

I think that, unlike in the past, the people that consider cars as just transportation will use other more convenient methods if they're available.
A car has been a necessary part of life to most people, maybe that's changing. Great! More room for enthusiasts on the roads!

No, it's not changing. If anything it will get more so, as jobs become even shorter lived, and as suburban sprawl continues to grow (cities can only get so dense/big).

Only in a few kooky liberal havens like Seattle, San Fran, NYC, etc., will rail transit (most have extensive bus systems but that's not chic enough) have any hope to make/keep any headway.

[AutobahnSHO]

The area around us insanely sprawled. You have to drive 5+ miles in most new neighborhoods just to get to a grocery store. Work is 5-15 miles away for most. Unless EVERYONE starts riding the bus, they run too infrequently to use for many trips.

[sportyaccordy]

In my age group (mid-late 20s) we've had an uptick in the number of "young professionals" who fall into a category of what I like to call "urban wannabe-hipster douchebags."

These people generally live in cities where cars are not needed, and where car ownership is generally a hassle due to parking regulations, high insurance premiums, etc. When these people get over themselves in a few years, add a ball and chain to their lives, and realize that they don't want to send their little darlings to a hard-knock inner city public school system, they will move back to the nice towns where they grew up and buy cars. 

As for me, I'll skip the kids, have fun well into my 30s and keep my car for when I'm sober enough to drive it. 

So whats the diff between these "urban wanna be hipster douchebags" and young people who have kids and happen to be in the city? How many of these folks do you actually know personally?

[sportyaccordy]

Sure they have access - mow lawns, do odd jobs for old people, work temp jobs - these are all things I did in high school and during college breaks. Make your hay - don't expect someone to give it to you.

Again, none of these opportunities exist for kids today. At least any that go to school during the day. Shit has changed a lot in the last 24 years, friend.

My (primary) high school job is NOT being worked by a "grown" person as I visit this former place of employment once a week - there are no grown adults bagging groceries.

At my grocery there are. Not all, but definitely some. Also keep in mind, used cars are a LOT more expensive now, after the weak new auto sales of the last couple years.

Of course you don't care; macro data proved you wrong.

Plenty of people don't live in big cities.

Right, but my point is a growing number do. And its not because they are "effeminate" or whatever goofy self-validating traits you want to assign without base.

The radical increase in the welfare state and hyper consumerism the last ~25 years, and the entitlement notion it fosters, parries, thrusts, and calls match. People who want to hustle will - many just don't want to because it's possible to get by not to.

Again... not having a car != not wanting to "hustle". I live in the hardest hustling city in the world. Folks here don't care about wasting money validating themselves with expensive machines they don't need... and those that do are at least honest about it.

One way of life is no more legitimate than the other... the shade some of you guys throw at city folks is hilarious

[2o6]

I was one of few in HS to have a job.

[Raza]

I live in a city.  I have a car.  I use it to drive myself places and then drive myself back. 

[veeman]

There are much more "necessary" expensive things for teenagers to spend their money on these days.  When I was a teenager in the 80's, if you had a job you might get a car because their was nothing else to spend coin on and having your own wheels meant more independence.  A portable sony CD player was less than 100 bucks.  There were no cell phones.  Commodore games were cheap and music was relatively cheap.

Today, a teenager may be spending over 100 bucks a month for cell phone charges or twice that.  A 4G IPAD costs 629 dollars.  A teenager may forgo that little extra independence and just use Mom and Dad's car to get around.  Gas is also twice as expensive as it was 20 years ago. 

[TurboDan]

I thought you were older than that.

Different perspective here.  I've never lived where a car wan't necessary, with the exception of San Diego when I was in Navy Hospital Corps School.

Outside of some East coast cities I can't think of anywhere I'd be able to, or want to, live without wheels.

I agree. There is absolutely no way you could do... anything... where I live without a car. And I live in New Jersey, not the sticks. I don't really get this whole thing.

At the end of the day, I think this is another example of the suits at a big company going nuts because statistical analyses show a drop in some categories. I see it every day at the company I work for. People freak out over ev-er-y-thing. When the economy improves, more people (including young people) will be able to afford to buy new cars, thus new car sales will increase.

Also, regarding teens getting licenses: I wonder how much of this has to do with the fact that mom and dad can't afford to help their children out with car purchases. If the economy has prevented this, it's easy to assume that a 17 year old might not get a license if he/she knows there's no way they'll ever actually be able to drive.

[Raza]

Nothing compares to the freedom of having your own car.  My brother and I carpool to work whenever we can (since we live in the same apartment building, but work different hours) and the lack of independence is hard to get used to when he drives. 

I've been guilted into driving coworkers to work before.  I hate it.  I tell them when to be ready and they're often late and I give them a five minute warning when we're leaving.  They've gotten annoyed by it enough that I'm now their last choice.  I don't like sharing my car with people I don't want to.  Seriously, you're an adult with a decent job.  Get a fucking car. 

[AutobahnSHO]

I've been guilted into driving coworkers to work before.  I hate it.  I tell them when to be ready and they're often late and I give them a five minute warning when we're leaving.  They've gotten annoyed by it enough that I'm now their last choice.  I don't like sharing my car with people I don't want to.  Seriously, you're an adult with a decent job.  Get a fucking car. 

lolololololol  That would be so much fun to explain when you get there without them- "Sorry boss, they just weren't dressed yet."

[sportyaccordy]

Nothing compares to the freedom of having your own car.  My brother and I carpool to work whenever we can (since we live in the same apartment building, but work different hours) and the lack of independence is hard to get used to when he drives. 

I've been guilted into driving coworkers to work before.  I hate it.  I tell them when to be ready and they're often late and I give them a five minute warning when we're leaving.  They've gotten annoyed by it enough that I'm now their last choice.  I don't like sharing my car with people I don't want to.  Seriously, you're an adult with a decent job.  Get a fucking car. 

This confuses me. You are not exactly working at the piggly wigglys. I can understand not buying a car if you don't need it. But not buying a car when you do need one and can afford one? What's their reasoning?

[sportyaccordy]

I was one of few in HS to have a job.

Was that because jobs were hard to find, or cause kids were effeminate and lazy?

[Raza]

lolololololol  That would be so much fun to explain when you get there without them- "Sorry boss, they just weren't dressed yet."

Trust me, it'll happen.  Next time, they get 5 minutes and then I'm leaving them.  It's a waste of my time and my gas to go later than I want to because traffic gets worse. 

[Raza]

This confuses me. You are not exactly working at the piggly wigglys. I can understand not buying a car if you don't need it. But not buying a car when you do need one and can afford one? What's their reasoning?

Seriously.  It more than confuses me, it angers me.  One guy borrowed a friend's car a few times to drive to work and he was saying "Man, I just don't like driving anymore".  Well, apparently he likes public transport even less, so toughen up. 

Then there's the "I live in the city, I don't need a car" argument.  Well, guess what....you work in a different state.  You knew that when you took the job and moved to Philadelphia.  You have the option to quit and find a job in the city or move to Delaware and use its crappy public transport system.  Don't give me that shit.

On the other hand, there's a guy who lives in the city, just a few blocks from me, who has never asked me for a ride.  A couple times when he was living in Delaware he asked me for a ride to the city while he was looking for a place.  But since he moved, he takes public transport while he saves up and shops for a car.  I respect that guy.  He made his choice and he doesn't burden anyone with it.  There's another fellow who fucked up his eyes and the state rescinded his driver's license.  He carpools, but pays for every other tank of gas or something like that.  I respect that too.

Now, two normal adults with cars who decide to share the burden of gas and wear and tear and driving stress by carpooling and switching off is a completely different situation. 

[2o6]

Was that because jobs were hard to find, or cause kids were effeminate and lazy?

Jobs were scarce; pretty much all of my classmates were looking.

[sportyaccordy]

Seriously.  It more than confuses me, it angers me.  One guy borrowed a friend's car a few times to drive to work and he was saying "Man, I just don't like driving anymore".  Well, apparently he likes public transport even less, so toughen up.  

Then there's the "I live in the city, I don't need a car" argument.  Well, guess what....you work in a different state.  You knew that when you took the job and moved to Philadelphia.  You have the option to quit and find a job in the city or move to Delaware and use its crappy public transport system.  Don't give me that shit.

On the other hand, there's a guy who lives in the city, just a few blocks from me, who has never asked me for a ride.  A couple times when he was living in Delaware he asked me for a ride to the city while he was looking for a place.  But since he moved, he takes public transport while he saves up and shops for a car.  I respect that guy.  He made his choice and he doesn't burden anyone with it.  There's another fellow who fucked up his eyes and the state rescinded his driver's license.  He carpools, but pays for every other tank of gas or something like that.  I respect that too.

Now, two normal adults with cars who decide to share the burden of gas and wear and tear and driving stress by carpooling and switching off is a completely different situation.  

A carpool needs more than one car, lol.

How do the folks w/no cars convince you to hitch rides? I would be like Stanley from The Office with that BS

[Raza]

A carpool needs more than one car, lol.

How do the folks w/no cars convince you to hitch rides? I would be like Stanley from The Office with that BS

My boss asked me.  I was young enough to think I couldn't really say no. 

[sportyaccordy]

Damn, thats legit. And fucked up

[GoCougs]

I live in a city.  I have a car.  I use it to drive myself places and then drive myself back. 

Sporty apparently doesn't realize that the vast majority of the country ain't NYC, and in that vast majority, not having a car is anything from an inconvenience to a major detriment to life.

[Onslaught]

I don't know how you can't have a car in most of the country. Take Charlotte NC for example. It would be almost impossible to live/work without one here.

[Raza]

Damn, thats legit. And fucked up

Yeah.  Worst part is that the kid (who is older than I am, chronologically) and the boss are friends.  My boss is the one who usually drives him in since they live in the same building.

[Raza]

I don't know how you can't have a car in most of the country. Take Charlotte NC for example. It would be almost impossible to live/work without one here.

I can't even imagine what my life currently would be like having to rely on public transportation.  Shit, last month I was here until midnight a couple of times.  Who wants to take that walk+bus+train+walk+cab back?  I work on the edge of a really shitty part of the state.  I'm on alert when I go to Wawa after sunset.

[sportyaccordy]

Sporty apparently doesn't realize that the vast majority of the country ain't NYC, and in that vast majority, not having a car is anything from an inconvenience to a major detriment to life.

NYC is growing, as are the # of cities where cars are becoming less and less necessary. Nowhere did I say most of the country would be ditching cars, in fact I have said numerous times that wholesale switching to PT would make no sense for most of the country.

My only contention is with your assertion that one is abnormal or whatever if they grow up without owning a car. Like I've asked and received no answer for, what about car ownership in cities where it is not needed to survive makes one an adult?

[GoCougs]

NYC is growing, as are the # of cities where cars are becoming less and less necessary. Nowhere did I say most of the country would be ditching cars, in fact I have said numerous times that wholesale switching to PT would make no sense for most of the country.

My only contention is with your assertion that one is abnormal or whatever if they grow up without owning a car. Like I've asked and received no answer for, what about car ownership in cities where it is not needed to survive makes one an adult?

Which is growing faster; urban population or suburban + rural population? My moderately-sized bet is on the latter.

Yes, my contention is those without a car are by definition abnormal (since, uh, the vast majority of the US own cars), and further, live less-than-fully realized lives.

Few areas are conducive to "no car" living; so much so it's not worth the argument. Those areas that are, those who live there that aren't wealthy (i.e., unlimited resources for conveyance - renting limos, helicopters, etc.), live limited, truncated lives owing to restricted mobility.

[sportyaccordy]

Which is growing faster; urban population or suburban + rural population? My moderately-sized bet is on the latter.

Yes, my contention is those without a car are by definition abnormal (since, uh, the vast majority of the US own cars), and further, live less-than-fully realized lives.

Few areas are conducive to "no car" living; so much so it's not worth the argument. Those areas that are, those who live there that aren't wealthy (i.e., unlimited resources for conveyance - renting limos, helicopters, etc.), live limited, truncated lives owing to restricted mobility.

Your bet is irrelevant. This is a case where a statistic is needed

Again, being that folks who don't own cars can easily rent one, and do with regularity (hence the success of Zipcar), how is one's live "truncated" by not owning a car?

[Madman]

When I went to school and worked in downtown Chicago, a car wasn't necessary.  In fact, the exorbitant cost of parking in any major city makes driving more expensive and inconvenient than public transport.  Nashville, however, is a completely different story.  Public transport here is a joke and you can't do jack shit without a car.  If public transport we a practical option for me, I would use it.  But it doesn't go where I need to go when I need it, so as far as I'm concerned, it may as well not exist.

I miss being able to read a book or take a nap on the train and arrive rested and refreshed.  Still, with fewer people driving, I can only hope there will be fewer idiots on the road getting in my way!

[TurboDan]

I can't even imagine what my life currently would be like having to rely on public transportation.  Shit, last month I was here until midnight a couple of times.  Who wants to take that walk+bus+train+walk+cab back?  I work on the edge of a really shitty part of the state.  I'm on alert when I go to Wawa after sunset.

Make sure the Jetta doesn't break down in Chester on your ride between DE and PA. 

[TurboDan]

When I went to college in Tampa, FL, the first thing they told us at freshman orientation was "yeah, there's a public transportation system here, but there's so much crime on it that you should avoid using it."

They were most certainly right.

[sportyaccordy]

That doesn't make PT a bad idea everywhere. Hell there is crime on the NYC MTA system, its still the best system in the country and the best option for many folks.

Still at a loss as to what separates "wannabe hipster douchebags" from "young people in the city" and how car ownership is a necessity for adult development

[Raza]

Make sure the Jetta doesn't break down in Chester on your ride between DE and PA. 

I very rarely drive through Chester.  When I do, I drive quickly and try to avoid red lights.  It's an industrial area, so it's not too bad, though.