2013 Ford Escape: High MPG Should Sell Lots and Lots

[Payman]

Plus, they'll cost more to buy and to maintain/repair.

Sometimes people just like to be different in any way they can.

Diesel engines typically last 2-3 times longer than their gasoline counterparts. Many trucks rack up 1 million plus miles, and evn VW TDi's are known to run more than 300,000 miles before overhaul.

[MrH]

Plus, they'll cost more to buy and to maintain/repair.

Sometimes people just like to be different in any way they can.

Rebelling for the sake of rebelling without any justification.  I feel like that describes the vast majority of preferences on both this forum and my generation.

[280Z Turbo]

Diesel engines typically last 2-3 times longer than their gasoline counterparts. Many trucks rack up 1 million plus miles, and evn VW TDi's are known to run more than 300,000 miles before overhaul.

So? Good luck gettting a chassis to last that long anywhere that it snows. It's pretty rare to see blown engines these days.

[GoCougs]

Diesel engines typically last 2-3 times longer than their gasoline counterparts. Many trucks rack up 1 million plus miles, and evn VW TDi's are known to run more than 300,000 miles before overhaul.

But that's because they're designed to. Gas engines can also be designed to reliably last a million miles too, thing is, unlike a commercial vehicle, virtually no new car buyer keeps a car for that long - at the average of 18k/year, that's 56 years (and time also takes a toll - and engine would probably die of age in that time).

I would disagree on TDis - know quite a few who have had 'em, and though still running they start blowing smoke at well less than 200k.

[Galaxy]

I would disagree on TDis - know quite a few who have had 'em, and though still running they start blowing smoke at well less than 200k.

To little air, or to much fuel. Should be something that can be fixed quite easily.

[Byteme]

Diesel engines typically last 2-3 times longer than their gasoline counterparts. Many trucks rack up 1 million plus miles, and evn VW TDi's are known to run more than 300,000 miles before overhaul.

Most people don't keep a car long enough for that to become a factor. 

[GoCougs]

To little air, or to much fuel. Should be something that can be fixed quite easily.

Actually, I meant blue smoke (bad rings/head).

[sportyaccordy]

I used to be a believer in diesel, but I'm just not sure anymore. Despite the US getting low sulfur diesel, getting stuck behind a big diesel pickup still smells like sour farts. And it costs more than gasoline too. Not to mention the RPMs run out on a diesel pretty quickly, which discourages fast driving.

I'm not sure if diesels are really worth the cost compared to Ecoboost engines.

Gas/diesel swap places as far as what's more/less expensive. Whenever my family goes to Ghana we drive diesel... OLD diesel (W123-124 Benzes)... and it generally doesn't stink. And diesel engines discouraging fast driving is a good thing in a daily driver. I wouldn't mind a little Corolla diesel for the daily grind, as long as I could have something enjoyable for the weekend.

[nickdrinkwater]

Taxes too. There isn't a state in the union where gasoline taxes are more than diesel taxes.

By contrast in Europe gasoline is taxed (much) more than diesel.


Gasoline is also taxed more than diesel here in Canada. The federal excise tax on gasoline is 10?/L whereas it's only 4?/L for diesel.

Most stations are selling both 87 octane gasoline and 40 cetane diesel for 117.9?/L here. (~US$4.48/USgal)

Here in the UK Diesel is taxed more than petrol/gasoline... 

[cawimmer430]

By contrast in Europe gasoline is taxed (much) more than diesel.

The taxation on both fuels is very high, but the ownership of a diesel car is taxed much higher.


It already starts with the engine capacity taxation.

100cc's of a gasoline engine are taxed at 2,00 EUR.

100cc's of a diesel engine are taxed at 9,50 EUR.


So the tax on a 1.7-l diesel will cost 161,50 EUR. This is based on the 100cc / 9,50 EUR diesel tax time the engine capacity (1.7-l) which is a factor of 17. 17 x 9,50 = 161,50 EUR.

A diesel is financially smart for a certain class of car (all kinds of SUVs, large luxury cars, vans etc.) in Europe. Nevertheless, many people still opt for a diesel in small city cars like a VW Polo or Golf, where they only make sense if they're driven over a certain mileage per year.

[Madman]

I think the US Government should take the opposite tack and incentivise diesel by taxing it at a lower rate then gasoline.  All these big pickups and SUVs with huge gas-guzzling engines make absolutely no sense.  Think of how much fuel could be saved if all these hillbilly trucks and breeder buses had the torquey, fuel efficient turbodiesel engines their crying out for.

It's such an obvious solution and yet no one is saying anything about it! 

[cawimmer430]

I think the US Government should take the opposite tack and incentivise diesel by taxing it at a lower rate then gasoline.  All these big pickups and SUVs with huge gas-guzzling engines make absolutely no sense.  Think of how much fuel could be saved if all these hillbilly trucks and breeder buses had the torquey, fuel efficient turbodiesel engines their crying out for.

It's such an obvious solution and yet no one is saying anything about it!  

How is a Ford F-750 supposed to merge unto a freeway or do the 1/4 mile in 9 seconds if you take away it's 6.8-l V10?  

[SVT666]

Not funny.

[cawimmer430]

Not funny.

Ok, ok. Relax. I couldn't resist. 

The Ford F-650/750 etc. jokes will die down!!! I promise!

[SVT666]

Resist.  Because it's not funny.  It will never be funny, no matter how much you think it will be.

[GoCougs]

I think the US Government should take the opposite tack and incentivise diesel by taxing it at a lower rate then gasoline.  All these big pickups and SUVs with huge gas-guzzling engines make absolutely no sense.  Think of how much fuel could be saved if all these hillbilly trucks and breeder buses had the torquey, fuel efficient turbodiesel engines their crying out for.

It's such an obvious solution and yet no one is saying anything about it! 

Why do you want others to "save" the fuel?

Either way, as has been shown, people who buy those types of vehicles don't care about MPG, and a 400 hp TD isn't going to get significantly better MPG than a 400 hp gas engine when driven unladen (as most of those vehicles are); certainly never better MPG to financially justify the ~$7,500 premium the former demands. Also such engines aren't available in 1/2-tons and derivative products (full-size SUVs).

[2o6]

I could get behind my Yaris if it were the 1.4L diesel. Virturally the same real world performance (if not better) but significantly better fuel economy.

[Madman]

Why do you want others to "save" the fuel?

Really?  I mean, REALLY?!? 

[GoCougs]

I could get behind my Yaris if it were the 1.4L diesel. Virturally the same real world performance (if not better) but significantly better fuel economy.

Then why don't they (or virtually ANYONE) sell that kind of car here?

[GoCougs]

Really?  I mean, REALLY?!? 

Why?

[2o6]

Then why don't they (or virtually ANYONE) sell that kind of car here?

It's expensive and hard to certify in the US. Coupled with the slightly outdated reputation they have, there's no market.



Of the same token, US citizens used to think anything that isn't a midsized car was trash until maybe 15 years ago (compacts) and 5 years ago (subcompacts). Who knows; maybe Diesels will become more popular especially with companies like GM adopting diesels in it's mainstream cars (US market Diesel Cruze).

[cawimmer430]

The interesting stories are always those of ordinary American car enthusiasts who vacation in Europe, rent some "underpowered diesel shitbox" and then are amazed at the performance the car offers by carrying their family and luggage at amazing speed on the Autobahn/highways and returning mind-blowing fuel economy that even a Prius cannot achieve in similar situations. It's always nice to see them express their disdain at the lack of these choices in the US car market.

And that's the beauty of the European car market. Yeah, we get the shit taxed out of us here in terms of cars but we can choose between anything from a 316d Efficient Dynamics to an M3 Sedan - whatever our heart (and wallet) desires.

[SVT666]

The interesting stories are always those of ordinary American car enthusiasts who vacation in Europe, rent some "underpowered diesel shitbox" and then are amazed at the performance the car offers by carrying their family and luggage at amazing speed on the Autobahn/highways and returning mind-blowing fuel economy that even a Prius cannot achieve in similar situations. It's always nice to see them express their disdain at the lack of these choices in the US car market.

And that's the beauty of the European car market. Yeah, we get the shit taxed out of us here in terms of cars but we can choose between anything from a 316d Efficient Dynamics to an M3 Sedan - whatever our heart (and wallet) desires.

The options are available, but do you really have much of a choice unless you are really well off?  It sounds like if you want a Vauxhall VXR8 you will be paying tax out your ass.

[GoCougs]

It's expensive and hard to certify in the US. Coupled with the slightly outdated reputation they have, there's no market.

The interesting stories are always those of ordinary American car enthusiasts who vacation in Europe, rent some "underpowered diesel shitbox" and then are amazed at the performance the car offers by carrying their family and luggage at amazing speed on the Autobahn/highways and returning mind-blowing fuel economy that even a Prius cannot achieve in similar situations. It's always nice to see them express their disdain at the lack of these choices in the US car market.

And that's the beauty of the European car market. Yeah, we get the shit taxed out of us here in terms of cars but we can choose between anything from a 316d Efficient Dynamics to an M3 Sedan - whatever our heart (and wallet) desires.

It's no coincidence that that the freest auto market in the world by and large rejects diesels in their passenger vehicles: we don't want them - the cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag).

[2o6]

It's no coincidence that that the freest auto market in the world by and large rejects diesels in their passenger vehicles: we don't want them - the cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag).

You're missing the premise of why there is no market, though. Whether or not this has changed in the minds of American consumers has yet not been seen.

[TurboDan]

It's no coincidence that that the freest auto market in the world by and large rejects diesels in their passenger vehicles: we don't want them - the cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag).

Fail. Many state governments were just fine with a V10 Ford Excursion during the same years when a little diesel Jetta wouldn't meet their regulations and was banned from being sold by dealerships. This has nothing to do with a "free" auto market. Actually, it has to do with the fact that in many states, the opposite case is the reality.

[GoCougs]

You're missing the premise of why there is no market, though. Whether or not this has changed in the minds of American consumers has yet not been seen.

The premise is right there: "we don't want them - the(y) cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag)."

[TurboDan]

The premise is right there: "we don't want them - the(y) cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag)."

I did not notice any throttle lag in my Seat Altea rental car last summer, which was a diesel. Its performance was significantly better than my recent petrol Hyundai Elantra, actually, and I drove around a whole damn country for a week on two (little) tanks of fuel.

[GoCougs]

Fail. Many state governments were just fine with a V10 Ford Excursion during the same years when a little diesel Jetta wouldn't meet their regulations and was banned from being sold by dealerships. This has nothing to do with a "free" auto market. Actually, it has to do with the fact that in many states, the opposite case is the reality.

True, there has been some market distortion but today, and for some time, diesel engines are freely available in passenger vehicles. Americans simply don't want to buy these cars.

[GoCougs]

I did not notice any throttle lag in my Seat Altea rental car last summer, which was a diesel. Its performance was significantly better than my recent petrol Hyundai Elantra, actually, and I drove around a whole damn country for a week on two (little) tanks of fuel.

"Throttle" lag to me is the most noticeable difference, and it is there by definition in diesels - both from the absence of vacuum in the intake and turbo charging.