2013 Ford Escape: High MPG Should Sell Lots and Lots

[TurboDan]

True, there has been some market distortion but today, and for some time, diesel engines are freely available in passenger vehicles. Americans simply don't want to buy these cars.

There are only a few diesel passenger cars, and most of them are very expensive models. One would wonder what would happen if manufacturers tried out some diesel options in high-volume, mainstream passenger vehicles like the Escape, Liberty or even a car like the Camry, Focus, Fusion, etc.

[cawimmer430]

The options are available, but do you really have much of a choice unless you are really well off?  It sounds like if you want a Vauxhall VXR8 you will be paying tax out your ass.

Anyone who can afford an exotic and expensive sports car in Europe won't be bothered by those taxes.

[cawimmer430]

It's no coincidence that that the freest auto market in the world by and large rejects diesels in their passenger vehicles: we don't want them - the cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag).

The diesels you are describing are from the '70s and '80s. Those days are long gone.

[SVT666]

Anyone who can afford an exotic and expensive sports car in Europe won't be bothered by those taxes.

A Vauxhall VXR8 is not an exotic.

But here in North America we can have V8s in $30,000 muscle cars.  You can't because the government taxes the shit out of them.  That's not choice.

[GoCougs]

The diesels you are describing are from the '70s and '80s. Those days are long gone.

No; none of the modern diesels (VWAG mostly) can match the most basic of I4s or V6s.

[2o6]

No; none of the modern diesels (VWAG mostly) can match the most basic of I4s or V6s.

How do you know this when

A- You never have claimed to drive a modern diesel

B- throttle response varies from model to model

[GoCougs]

There are only a few diesel passenger cars, and most of them are very expensive models. One would wonder what would happen if manufacturers tried out some diesel options in high-volume, mainstream passenger vehicles like the Escape, Liberty or even a car like the Camry, Focus, Fusion, etc.

There are enough cheap cars out there that aren't expensive (primarily VW TDIs).

The automakers know what would happen if they "tried out some diesel options in high-volume" - it would be a financial disaster, ergo, they don't do it.

[2o6]

The premise is right there: "we don't want them - the(y) cost too much and they trail gasoline engines in NVH, smell, and performance (esp. throttle lag)."

Based upon outdated notions of what diesel motors are. Not that long ago, most Americans thought small cars were cramped, tippy, and nothing but disposable transport.


40 years ago, many Americans thought that Japanese cars were tinny crapboxes.

20 years ago, many Americans thought Hyundai made crapola cars.

[93JC]

There are only a few diesel passenger cars, and most of them are very expensive models. One would wonder what would happen if manufacturers tried out some diesel options in high-volume, mainstream passenger vehicles like the Escape, Liberty or even a car like the Camry, Focus, Fusion, etc.

[Colonel Cadillac]

True, there has been some market distortion but today, and for some time, diesel engines are freely available in passenger vehicles. Americans simply don't want to buy these cars.

Diesel sales suggest otherwise.

[2o6]

IIRC, it was a success.

[CJ]

From what I recall, VW dealer can't keep diesels on the lot.  I recall my VW dealer (Fowler VW in Norman and Boardwalk in Plano) saying that the cars are typically sold before they leave the truck.

[93JC]

Here in the UK Diesel is taxed more than petrol/gasoline... 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/tiin/tiin866.pdf says ?0.6097/L for both petrol and diesel.

It's true that diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol in the UK, but not because of taxes. And I was speaking of Europe in general, not just the UK. In Germany for instance the excise taxes on petrol and diesel are ?0.65/L and ?0.47/L respectively.

See http://www.energy.eu/#Prices for European fuel prices. Notice that the UK is one of a handful of European countries where diesel costs more than petrol: the difference is mostly taxes.

The taxation on both fuels is very high, but the ownership of a diesel car is taxed much higher.


It already starts with the engine capacity taxation.

100cc's of a gasoline engine are taxed at 2,00 EUR.

100cc's of a diesel engine are taxed at 9,50 EUR.


So the tax on a 1.7-l diesel will cost 161,50 EUR. This is based on the 100cc / 9,50 EUR diesel tax time the engine capacity (1.7-l) which is a factor of 17. 17 x 9,50 = 161,50 EUR.

I was speaking only of the duties and taxes on the fuel itself, not registration/"road" taxes. Figuring out fuel taxes alone is complicated enough.

[ifcar]

Based upon outdated notions of what diesel motors are. Not that long ago, most Americans thought small cars were cramped, tippy, and nothing but disposable transport.


40 years ago, many Americans thought that Japanese cars were tinny crapboxes.

20 years ago, many Americans thought Hyundai made crapola cars.

20 years ago, EVERY American thought Hyundai made "crapola" cars, because they almost indisuptably did.

[2o6]

20 years ago, EVERY American thought Hyundai made "crapola" cars, because they almost indisuptably did.

That's my point. Now they don't.

[SVT666]

Based upon outdated notions of what diesel motors are. Not that long ago, most Americans thought small cars were cramped, tippy, and nothing but disposable transport.

They were.

40 years ago, many Americans thought that Japanese cars were tinny crapboxes.

They were.

20 years ago, many Americans thought Hyundai made crapola cars.

They did.  

[2o6]

They were.
They were.
They did.  

And likewise, Diesels were slow, and smelly, and terrible and for the most part, they were. Now they aren't.


I mean, I would not want a Diesel Tempo circa 1985, which only made around 50HP.

[SVT666]

DIesels haven't changed a lot.  I have been behind smelly and smokey VW TDi's in traffic.

[2o6]

DIesels haven't changed a lot.  I have been behind smelly and smokey VW TDi's in traffic.

I have been behind a modern diesel. I honestly can't really tell the difference. None of us (save for a few) have driven any modern diesel newer than I would say 1990.

[sportyaccordy]

DIesels haven't changed a lot.  I have been behind smelly and smokey VW TDi's in traffic.

A lot of the VWs up here are diesel. No smell or smoke. Just a slight schoolbus rattle + BOV sound from the older ones.

I dont like diesels in performance cars. But theres nothing wrong with them in daily grind cars. Even the moderately old ones are OK. My family drives strictly diesel in Ghana. The ~90ish E class diesel runs fine. Dead reliable too.

[Eye of the Tiger]

A lot of the VWs up here are diesel. No smell or smoke. Just a slight schoolbus rattle + BOV sound from the older ones.

I dont like diesels in performance cars. But theres nothing wrong with them in daily grind cars. Even the moderately old ones are OK. My family drives strictly diesel in Ghana. The ~90ish E class diesel runs fine. Dead reliable too.

I'd love to see a diesel with a BOV

[TurboDan]

There are enough cheap cars out there that aren't expensive (primarily VW TDIs).

The automakers know what would happen if they "tried out some diesel options in high-volume" - it would be a financial disaster, ergo, they don't do it.

I didn't say to try them in high-volume numbers. I said to try a diesel option in a high-volume car. Throw a diesel in the Escape in a limited capacity and see if it sticks.

[Madman]

I would not want a Diesel Tempo circa 1985, which only made around 50HP.

52 horsepower, thank you very much! 

[Colonel Cadillac]

And diesel engines discouraging fast driving is a good thing in a daily driver.

Wait a second...what???

[cawimmer430]

DIesels haven't changed a lot.  I have been behind smelly and smokey VW TDi's in traffic.

What's you diesel fuel like in terms of quality?

It's been very cool in Munich these last few days so when I am in traffic I don't use my A/C. I have my windows down and my sunroof open and I don't smell the exhausts of the various diesel cars around me, be it VWs, MBs, BMWs etc. The only diesel cars which really stink are some buses, trucks and older delivery vans. The new diesel cars on the other hand don't smell and don't emit a cloud of black smoke. 

Our diesel fuel quality is also strictly monitored by various agencies to ensure "cleanliness".

[cawimmer430]

The options are available, but do you really have much of a choice unless you are really well off?  It sounds like if you want a Vauxhall VXR8 you will be paying tax out your ass.

First off, we don't get the Vauxhall VXR8. That's a UK-only car.

Second, anyone who buys such an expensive car couldn't be bothered about automotive taxation. These people have money and those taxes are just a small price to pay. Tell me, if you were a millionaire, made hundreds of thousands / millions of Euros a year, would you really care about paying a few thousand Euros taxes a year on your performance car? I don't think so.

Third, welcome to the rear world. We can't all drive our dream cars. Life is unfair. Even in the US not everyone can afford to purchase their dream car. It's that simple.

Forth, we don't lust after big gas-guzzling SUVs and pickups. You can't park anywhere with them, they're to wide for our narrow country roads, their fuel economy sucks and we can get space efficient and economical station wagons with options such as AWD, various engines to suit our needs, M/T, A/T, CVT etc.

[Xer0]

Second, anyone who buys such an expensive car couldn't be bothered about automotive taxation. These people have money and those taxes are just a small price to pay. Tell me, if you were a millionaire, made hundreds of thousands / millions of Euros a year, would you really care about paying a few thousand Euros taxes a year on your performance car? I don't think so.

His point is that thats not an expensive car. When it was here in the states as the G8 it cost like 30k with a 362 hp V8.  Taxation makes it an expensive car.  Because of taxes you have to be a millionare to enjoy a good car.  That shouldn't be the case.

[2o6]

His point is that thats not an expensive car. When it was here in the states as the G8 it cost like 30k with a 362 hp V8.  Taxation makes it an expensive car.  Because of taxes you have to be a millionare to enjoy a good car.  That shouldn't be the case.

Don't wages make it more proportional to the income of that market, though?

[cawimmer430]

His point is that thats not an expensive car. When it was here in the states as the G8 it cost like 30k with a 362 hp V8.  Taxation makes it an expensive car. 

Everything is more expensive over here. There is no "cheap" V8 car on sale here. Even an imported Ford Mustang V8 will be priced above 50,000 Euros. Those who want it and can afford it can buy it. Nobody is stopping them from getting what they want. Besides, the car taxes aren't that expensive in the big picture.

Because of taxes you have to be a millionare to enjoy a good car.  That shouldn't be the case.

That's life. We don't all get to drive our dream cars. Once again, the people who can afford these cars could care less about the taxes. And most folks here just need a car to get from A to B with the lowest possible costs (just like the majority of Americans). They could care less about a V6 or V8 but rather look at efficient 4-cylinder diesel and gasoline engines.

I might not have a V8 under my hood but I'm driving a "good car". I'm relatively happy with it and I don't lust for a V8 performance car at all. 

[cawimmer430]

Italy hikes gas taxes to raise money for earthquake relief



Tragedy is a relative concept. Some would call it a tragedy that, while Italy makes some of the most desirable (and gas-guzzling) cars on the market, it also has some of the highest fuel prices in Europe. But that unfortunate reality is far overshadowed by the two earthquakes that have struck the country's Emilia-Romagna region, killing 24 people in total. Now the fledgling government tasked with steering the troubled country into financial health is forced to raise fuel taxes even higher to relieve the aftermath of the disasters.

The move, recently approved by the government cabinet of Prime Minister Mario Monti (pictured above), will raise the price of gasoline by another two euro-cents per liter, further entrenching its dubious position holding the third highest prices in the world. Gas prices currently exceed the European average and the equivalent of $9.35 per gallon, representing over nine percent of daily income that Italians have to pay at the pump. Coupled with public funds previously earmarked towards combating Italy's rising deficit ? currently the second largest in Europe ? and freed up by Monti's government in a recent spending constriction, the cash brought from the fuel-tax increase will go towards relief efforts.

What remains unclear, however, is how Italians will continue paying such high tax rates when the disasters have, according to lobby group Coldiretti, cost farmers over 500 million euros (U.S. $621 million at current exchange rates), and manufacturers several hundred million more, according to Confindustria, the employers' union formerly headed by Ferrari president, former Fiat chairman and potential future premiership candidate Luca di Montezemolo.

Ferrari's was one of several automotive factories that temporarily ceased operations in the wake of the disaster, allowing its workers to tend to their own families. The Maranello-based company has since reopened its factory and is organizing a charity auction to help with the disaster-relief efforts.


Link: http://green.autoblog.com/2012/06/01/italy-hikes-gas-taxes-to-raise-money-for-earthquake-relief/