Interesting counterpoint on the ATS

[sportyaccordy]

My point is, just being "more American" isn't enough. And really, it's not. A&S isn't exactly an American looking design theme... it's more origami than apple pie. The car is not bigger than the competition... actually its dimensions are pretty much exactly the same as the 3 series. So it's not American in size. We already know the deal with the powerplants. I don't even think the car will be built in the US. So what about it is "more American in approach"?

Regarding your questions... the Elantra has way more distinctive style, supposedly better gas mileage, and a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty. Focus/Forte/3? IDK, but neither is a new entry into the field so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Dart is def tenuous.

Again you missed my point... the Camry/Accord brought something new to the table. Efficiency, reliability, higher build quality than the Americans, for the same price as the Americans. The ATS doesn't have any big wow factors like that.

CTS was an American 5 series for the price of a 3 series with a very distinctive look (the lack of latter beign what killed the Lincoln LS). G35 sacrificed the nuances of the 3 for value, interior space, and performance- performance so strong in fact that it elevated the baseline of the segment. Nothing could touch the G35 coupe in its segment for a long time.

Again, the ATS doesn't have anything groundbreaking about it, like any of the new cars people have used to claim it can be a success. Most of those cars came out to little, very weak, or no competition at all. The ATS is jumping into a very crowded field with nothing to warrant picking it over anything else.

[Vinsanity]

Damn, I forgot you own one.  Didn't mean to offend, but now that I have....

The engine is harsh and the transmission is clunky.  The interior was cheap.  It was just bigger than the competition. 

The engine doesn't quite feel like it belongs in a luxury car (even an entry-level one), but I wouldn't call it harsh. My transmission only started becoming clunky at around ~70k miles, and only at certain times. Which is unfortunate, really. It was butter-smooth when I first got the car.

I thought they felt a bit...Rubbermaid plasticy.

And yes, the inside is decked with plastic, but it's mostly nice plastic.

[2o6]

My point is, just being "more American" isn't enough. And really, it's not. A&S isn't exactly an American looking design theme... it's more origami than apple pie. The car is not bigger than the competition... actually its dimensions are pretty much exactly the same as the 3 series. So it's not American in size. We already know the deal with the powerplants. I don't even think the car will be built in the US. So what about it is "more American in approach"?

It's not a 3-series, so it's not going to drive like a 3-series. The IS is also pretty similar in it's mantra, but do you see Lexus not selling any IS's (yeah, the ES outsells it, but that's not my  The A4 is also similar (who cares about quattro?) but yet again, it still commands a sizable force of the market.

Regarding your questions... the Elantra has way more distinctive style, supposedly better gas mileage, and a 10 year bumper to bumper warranty. Focus/Forte/3? IDK, but neither is a new entry into the field so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Dart is def tenuous.

For the sake of this argument; they're honestly on the same plane. One model may have minimal strengths or weaknesses, but they're pretty much all directly comparable.

Again you missed my point... the Camry/Accord brought something new to the table. Efficiency, reliability, higher build quality than the Americans, for the same price as the Americans. The ATS doesn't have any big wow factors like that.

It's also better equipped than the 3-series. The basic 328i is fairly spartan, and options are very expensive.

CTS was an American 5 series for the price of a 3 series with a very distinctive look (the lack of latter beign what killed the Lincoln LS). G35 sacrificed the nuances of the 3 for value, interior space, and performance- performance so strong in fact that it elevated the baseline of the segment. Nothing could touch the G35 coupe in its segment for a long time.

The LS died because it was old and low quality. Cadillac kept the CTS fresh with new engines and interior updates. Ford did a horrible faclift near the end of it's life cycle, but it was hopelessly outclassed by everything else. You could argue that the LS, CTS and Infiniti G were all going for the same mark; the 3-series.

Again, the ATS doesn't have anything groundbreaking about it, like any of the new cars people have used to claim it can be a success. Most of those cars came out to little, very weak, or no competition at all. The ATS is jumping into a very crowded field with nothing to warrant picking it over anything else.

Does it? GM is touting some serious engineering feats that BMW doesn't have; the magnaride suspension for one. It also has engine choices that BMW doesn't have (better economy four-cylinders). It's also not a 3-series, so it obviously isn't going to drive like a 3-series.

[sportyaccordy]

Its gonna drive like a 3 series, because a 3 series was its dynamic benchmark

You missed the point. None of the cars in the compact segment are new, aside from the Dart, which honestly has many of the same problems as the ATS. What's its draw over its competitors? If you are going to make a new entry, it has to be BETTER, not GOOD ENOUGH.

I will have to see the options list. But while it might be better equipped, it's way down on power. So they're not directly comparable.

Again there was nothing like the LS, CTS, or G when those cars came out. The ATS has competition even within its own brand.

Again... why would anyone buy this over any of its competitors? That's the question that should be answered before designing/building it.

[2o6]

Its gonna drive like a 3 series, because a 3 series was its dynamic benchmark

You missed the point. None of the cars in the compact segment are new, aside from the Dart, which honestly has many of the same problems as the ATS. What's its draw over its competitors? If you are going to make a new entry, it has to be BETTER, not GOOD ENOUGH.

I will have to see the options list. But while it might be better equipped, it's way down on power. So they're not directly comparable.

Again there was nothing like the LS, CTS, or G when those cars came out. The ATS has competition even within its own brand.

Again... why would anyone buy this over any of its competitors? That's the question that should be answered before designing/building it.

Elantra, Cruze, Focus, Civic are new. Corolla is near the end of it's model cycle, and the Forte is about to be replaced. In Europe, there are more competitors in this field.


People will buy this because it's a compact Cadillac, and there are buyers who are looking for a car like this from Cadillac. They are looking for a sportier CTS in a smaller, cheaper package.







Why must you rationalize the entire automotive marketplace to only a handful of choices?

[sportyaccordy]

Elantra, Focus, Civic were established name plates + models. GM has always had a compact car.

I'm not trying to rationalize out choices, I am just trying to understand how people think this car will sell.

[TurboDan]

I know. I read the whole thing.

But he's implying that these cars are "underpowered" and cannot go up a hill. It's a silly analogy.

I agree. It's absolutely insane. And I'm an American who drives on American roads every day. 

[TurboDan]

As long as Cadillac keeps striving to build true world-class cars that can be legitimate rivals to the BMW/Merc/Audi hegemony, the negative stigma associated with the Cadillac brand will GRADUALLY evaporate.  The worst thing Cadillac can do is to lose their nerve, get cold feet and fall back on their old bad habits.

EXACTLY! And this is coming from a guy who was totally biased against American cars until recently. Caddy can re-instate its awesomeness. But not by imitating massive, land-yacht senior citizen cruisers. It's gotta compete where the younger generation is looking, and I'm confident the ATS does it.

I absolutely WANT an American brand to prove we can produce a car as good as the 3er. If Caddy can do that with ATS, that is fucking AWESOME! Let's support that instead of attacking it! 

[TurboDan]

The CTS has done much to redeem the Cadillac brand in the eyes of the buying public.

So did the XLR. But they never capitalized on it. Everyone LOVED that car. But it never trickled down. That was a major loss for Caddy.

[TurboDan]

Yeah, but Wimmer's shitting himself saying that the 118i is more than enough for anyone, but it's just some dumbass talking.

I had a 1.8 VW. It was fine for the 7 years I had it. 

[TurboDan]

Again there was nothing like the LS, CTS, or G when those cars came out. The ATS has competition even within its own brand.

Again, WHAT IS WRONG WITH COMPETITION? Maybe the ATS is better than the 3er! 

[cawimmer430]

Those aren't luxury cars. They are directly comparable to mainstream midsizers like Accord and Camry.

They're not luxury cars but you can order them in luxury trims and then they'll rise out of the Camcord class and be comparable to a Toyota Avalon or Hyundai Azera.

[sportyaccordy]

Again, WHAT IS WRONG WITH COMPETITION? Maybe the ATS is better than the 3er!  

When did I say there was anything wrong w/competition?

How many times do I have to say this? There is nothing wrong w/making a new car, IF it has some attributes that separate it from the competition. The Accord/Camry brought levels of quality never experienced at a mainstream price point. The A4 brought AWD and Teutonic style to the sport sedan market and was the first sport sedan to legitimately take on the 3 series. The G35 kicked up the baseline of performance in the sport sedan market up 2 notches. The Chevy C/K trucks modernized the pickup truck and made it palatable to the mainstream. ALL of these cars were released into fields where they had significantly less/weaker competition. The ATS doesn't stand out in any way from its competition, and is up against a lot of very stiff competition as well. I'm not saying this is a Catera or even CTS situation. I'm sure it will be a good car. But so is everything else in the segment. Plus its identity is very confused. Its an American car that benchmarked a 13 year old German car. The whole thing kind of doesn't make sense.

I put it like this. 3 series sells 400K worldwide and 100K here. C Class does about 300/60. Infiniti G does about 60K here. How much do you think the ATS will sell, and who will it take sales away from?

[Xer0]

That comercial would be pretty sweet.

[Raza]

I had a 1.8 VW. It was fine for the 7 years I had it.  

I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm saying that he's overreacting. 

(Still, as I recall, the 1.8T is a lot more powerful than the 118i's naturally aspirated engine.)

[2o6]

When did I say there was anything wrong w/competition?

How many times do I have to say this? There is nothing wrong w/making a new car, IF it has some attributes that separate it from the competition. The Accord/Camry brought levels of quality never experienced at a mainstream price point. The A4 brought AWD and Teutonic style to the sport sedan market and was the first sport sedan to legitimately take on the 3 series. The G35 kicked up the baseline of performance in the sport sedan market up 2 notches. The Chevy C/K trucks modernized the pickup truck and made it palatable to the mainstream. ALL of these cars were released into fields where they had significantly less/weaker competition. The ATS doesn't stand out in any way from its competition, and is up against a lot of very stiff competition as well. I'm not saying this is a Catera or even CTS situation. I'm sure it will be a good car. But so is everything else in the segment. Plus its identity is very confused. Its an American car that benchmarked a 13 year old German car. The whole thing kind of doesn't make sense.

I put it like this. 3 series sells 400K worldwide and 100K here. C Class does about 300/60. Infiniti G does about 60K here. How much do you think the ATS will sell, and who will it take sales away from?

The 3-series also have the home market monopolized by offering very basic trims.


The ATS is aiming to be a fun-to-drive Cadillac, that's it's angle.

Elantra, Focus, Civic were established name plates + models. GM has always had a compact car.

I'm not trying to rationalize out choices, I am just trying to understand how people think this car will sell.

These are all the compact cars I can think of off the top of my head for the European Market

Cruze
Astra
Mazda 3
Megane
308
C4
Auris
Focus
Lancer
Golf
Jetta
Giulietta
Bravo
Delta
Civic
Cee'd
Elantra/i30
Leon
Octavia
MG6
Roewe 550
Impreza


I haven't even gotten into the tall B-segments that offer C-segment space.


That is more than what the US gets, offering more choices (we often do not get the option packages they do), yet each model is on sale, and they manage to sell units (some more than others, obviously).

[sportyaccordy]

Again, ALL of those cars are relatively high volume cars that have decades of development costs behind them. Toyota spends nothing more than the cost of new panel tools for each new generation/version of the Corolla. And it is sold worldwide.

ATS is, IIRC, based on a brand new platform, and really won't sell too much outside the US, as well as not really sell well within the US. So the two are not comparable. The ATS is not a Cruze, Astra, Mazda 3, Megane, 308, C4, Auris, Focus, Lancer, Golf, Jetta, Giulietta, Bravo, Delta, Civic, Cee'd, Elantra/i30, Leon, Octavia, MG6, Roewe 550 or Impreza, because all of those cars have previous versions + established markets + sales expectations. ATS is, for all intents and purposes, GM's first direct attack on the 3 series, w/an all new platform, jumping into one of the most crowded segments w/no unique factors. How do you not see the difference?

[2o6]

The segment isn't crowded at all.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Again, ALL of those cars are relatively high volume cars that have decades of development costs behind them. Toyota spends nothing more than the cost of new panel tools for each new generation/version of the Corolla. And it is sold worldwide.

ATS is, IIRC, based on a brand new platform, and really won't sell too much outside the US, as well as not really sell well within the US. So the two are not comparable. The ATS is not a Cruze, Astra, Mazda 3, Megane, 308, C4, Auris, Focus, Lancer, Golf, Jetta, Giulietta, Bravo, Delta, Civic, Cee'd, Elantra/i30, Leon, Octavia, MG6, Roewe 550 or Impreza, because all of those cars have previous versions + established markets + sales expectations. ATS is, for all intents and purposes, GM's first direct attack on the 3 series, w/an all new platform, jumping into one of the most crowded segments w/no unique factors. How do you not see the difference?

Cadillac chose to chip away at its competitors' market share rather than take a big gamble. GM isn't in the position to take big gambles. Theoretically, the company owes its creditors many billions of dollars (time will tell if Uncle Sam will recoup its investment). 

[SVT666]

GM has already paid back the government loans including the interest.

[sportyaccordy]

Cadillac chose to chip away at its competitors' market share rather than take a big gamble. GM isn't in the position to take big gambles. Theoretically, the company owes its creditors many billions of dollars (time will tell if Uncle Sam will recoup its investment). 

I would call creating a brand new platform for one model a big gamble. Remember the Solstice/Sky?

[Raza]

Eh, it's for one model right now. 

[sportyaccordy]

What else will it underpin, the Camaro? Needs more than that.

[Vinsanity]

I would call creating a brand new platform for one model a big gamble. Remember the Solstice/Sky?

Remember, the Camaro will also be on this platform. The next CTS will probably be on a stretched version of this platform as well.

[CJ]

GM has already paid back the government loans including the interest.

Yet the government still has a good stake in GM.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I would call creating a brand new platform for one model a big gamble. Remember the Solstice/Sky?

Remember, the Camaro will also be on this platform. The next CTS will probably be on a stretched version of this platform as well.

[Colonel Cadillac]

GM has already paid back the government loans including the interest.

Uncle Sam still owns a big, big chunk of GM. If the government wishes to make a profit from the sale of its holdings, GM's stock would have to more than double right now.

"Creditor" was perhaps the wrong term, but the government couldn't recapitalize GM fully through debt and no equity. In other words, its equity holdings are sorta loans.

[Raza]

What else will it underpin, the Camaro? Needs more than that.

Dude, look at how much Volkswagen can do with a single platform.  I mean, think outside the box for a little while. 

[sportyaccordy]

Dude, look at how much Volkswagen can do with a single platform.  I mean, think outside the box for a little while. 

The VAG modular platforms are a whole different bag, friend.

Plus in any case, what does it matter. This is not unlike the Lincoln LS, actually, except its facing stiffer competition. Even if the platform lives on, the car can still fail.

[Raza]

The VAG modular platforms are a whole different bag, friend.

Plus in any case, what does it matter. This is not unlike the Lincoln LS, actually, except its facing stiffer competition. Even if the platform lives on, the car can still fail.

You really have it out for the ATS, eh?