Interesting counterpoint on the ATS

[sportyaccordy]

I guess I'll just never understand your argument here. Why do American cars have to be larger than their competitors? You hold up the 300 as an example time and time again. It's not a bad car, but I would never even THINK of buying it because it's too large. Why should I have to buy a boat if I want to buy American luxury? It makes ZERO sense.

People in the entry-lux market generally don't want huge-ass cars. That's why the most successful entry-lux cars are the 3er, A4, etc. Why should Caddy make a larger car than the kind most people shopping in this segment want?

The CTS and G35 are hardly boats, but they are larger than the 3er & A4 and are still successful. In fact, they were successful partially BECAUSE they are bigger. So again, the concept that an entry lux car will fail if it is not the exact size of a 3 series is ridiculous, as is the notion that if a luxury brand strays from 3/5/7 it will fail.

We know

My point is that keeping the 5-series sized car in the 3-series' segment makes it difficult to build cars that compete in the upper ranges of the luxury market. Look at Infiniti--it's having a lot of trouble in the 5er's market (and they have nothing for the 7er's segment).

Well now we get into the questions of the value of competing on every level, and what exactly prompts folks who drop $90K on a car to pick one car over the other. I live on the UES and I see a lot of the owners of these cars. The only Cadillacs they go for are Escalade ESVs, because their young kids need a lot of room that no European cars offer. Other than that, I don't see ANY Caddys (or Hyundais for that matter), and a DTS is just as competent a chauffeur car as any German car. I think the difference is solely brand bias, which takes way more than 1 "good enough" car to change.

Submariner's post brings up another good point about the success of Lexus. The assembly quality of the original LS was so far beyond that of the Germans at the time it really blew people away. It took an extraordinary level of effort + quality (as well as what prob amounted to a sacrificial attitude towards initial profitability) to get the American public to buy into high level luxury cars. Let's really reexamine the first LS and show what it takes to change perception in 1 car.

The LS cost $36K, or ~$16K less than the cheapest German full sizers. It had more HP than every Benz on sale. The build quality was 1-2 notches above the Germans. And even with all that, Lexus still has no presence in Europe. The hope is the ATS will be as good as the 3er, and in being just good enough will shift perceptions. Do you see the disconnect?

[sportyaccordy]

This is stupid.

No, its a good discussion. I don't get why people are angry.

[VetteZ06]

Though reviews have initially been good, I'm still weary about how the XTS's innards will actually stack up against the competition.

Just for fun:

Case in point: I came and left the XTS drive in a Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG, and the XTS's innards are noticeably finer overall.

Did anyone ever say the CTS's interior was "noticeably finer" than a much more expensive Mercedes?

[GoCougs]

I'm just not understanding the claims the ATS is going to be this awesome contender; especially with I4 engine options. My hunch is Cadillac doesn't expect it to make a huge splash either. Relatively new entrants that found success had compelling propositions (G series had big power and good dynamics for a way cheap price and the IS had the Lexus name behind it) - not really seeing anything here other than somewhat polarizing Cadillac-esque styling and the touchscreen interface.

[sportyaccordy]

Just for fun:
Did anyone ever say the CTS's interior was "noticeably finer" than a much more expensive Mercedes?

Who ever said the CTS' interior was one of its strong points?

[sportyaccordy]

I'm just not understanding the claims the ATS is going to be this awesome contender; especially with I4 engine options. My hunch is Cadillac doesn't expect it to make a huge splash either. Relatively new entrants that found success had compelling propositions (G series had big power and good dynamics for a way cheap price and the IS had the Lexus name behind it) - not really seeing anything here other than somewhat polarizing Cadillac-esque styling and the touchscreen interface.

Exactly. This doesn't make it a bad car but it def makes it a very probable sales disappointment for GM.

[SVT666]

Just for fun:
Did anyone ever say the CTS's interior was "noticeably finer" than a much more expensive Mercedes?

I like how you left out the part where the reviewer lambasted Cadillac for the terrible seats.

[Colonel Cadillac]

The CTS and G35 are hardly boats, but they are larger than the 3er & A4 and are still successful. In fact, they were successful partially BECAUSE they are bigger. So again, the concept that an entry lux car will fail if it is not the exact size of a 3 series is ridiculous, as is the notion that if a luxury brand strays from 3/5/7 it will fail.
Well now we get into the questions of the value of competing on every level, and what exactly prompts folks who drop $90K on a car to pick one car over the other. I live on the UES and I see a lot of the owners of these cars. The only Cadillacs they go for are Escalade ESVs, because their young kids need a lot of room that no European cars offer. Other than that, I don't see ANY Caddys (or Hyundais for that matter), and a DTS is just as competent a chauffeur car as any German car. I think the difference is solely brand bias, which takes way more than 1 "good enough" car to change.

Submariner's post brings up another good point about the success of Lexus. The assembly quality of the original LS was so far beyond that of the Germans at the time it really blew people away. It took an extraordinary level of effort + quality (as well as what prob amounted to a sacrificial attitude towards initial profitability) to get the American public to buy into high level luxury cars. Let's really reexamine the first LS and show what it takes to change perception in 1 car.

The LS cost $36K, or ~$16K less than the cheapest German full sizers. It had more HP than every Benz on sale. The build quality was 1-2 notches above the Germans. And even with all that, Lexus still has no presence in Europe. The hope is the ATS will be as good as the 3er, and in being just good enough will shift perceptions. Do you see the disconnect?

You see UES folk in the S550. Now, which Cadillac competes with the S550? Not a single one, so obviously you will not see UES snobs driving around in a Cadillac. In addition, you don't see that many Cadillacs because the brand itself offers little to nothing special as of now. The brand has products that are all over the place and there is little congruency within its product line. This strategy is bad and clearly cannot continue. Cadillac is attempting to build a luxury brand, starting from the bottom and expanding up. Sure, a blowout vehicle can do wonders for the brand, but that is just one blowout vehicle (and what will that be?). All the other successful luxury brands have a full line of luxury cars. Audi was nowhere 10-15 years ago, and offered not a single knockout car. However, it developed a full line of good cars and as a result its sales are growing faster than Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes. Cadillac can still make a lot of money repeating the strategy.


It has been said before: Cadillac has little brand equity. They cannot build brand equity if they continue to offer random products that serve no particular market or need. Consistency and reliability will build its brand equity. Making big bets on unproven niches, some of which will be failures, does nothing for its brand equity. The XTS is a mistake. The ATS is not.

[VetteZ06]

Who ever said the CTS' interior was one of its strong points?

When it first came out, I'm pretty sure most reviews were positive about the CTS's interior. But, my point is that it's not nearly as well done as the XTS interior. With the CTS it was more, "Well, at least GM can build something that's class-competitive."

Edit - Upon further examination, here's what C&D and Edmunds said about the CTS when it was first released a few years ago:

Possibly the most dramatic improvement to the CTS is the upscale and coherently flowing interior, complete with classy materials and top-notch fit and finish. Cadillac's least-expensive car certainly doesn't feel that way, and it upstages the '08 Mercedes C-class. It also doesn't hurt that even with a steeply raked rear window, the CTS offers a much larger and usable back seat (the smallest Caddy is similar in size to a 5-series BMW) than those in the smaller luxury sedans it competes with price-wise.

The CTS's new interior treatment has a visual warmth, and interiors from BMW and Mercedes seem cold and austere in comparison, while a Lexus seems antiseptic.

So, yes, it appears the interior was considered to be a strong point.

I like how you left out the part where the reviewer lambasted Cadillac for the terrible seats.

So it had squishy seats. Okay. One point for you. Happy?

The fact remains that the guy felt a $60,000 Cadillac had a "noticeably finer" interior than a Mercedes that costs about $150,000. When's the last time you ever heard such effusive praise for a Cadillac interior?

[Xer0]

The fact remains that the guy felt a $60,000 Cadillac had a "noticeably finer" interior than a Mercedes that costs about $150,000. When's the last time you ever heard such effusive praise for a Cadillac interior?

Uh, the C-class isn't a $150,000 car.  The 08 model also had a pretty bland interior and was nothing to write home about.  Its faint praise at best.

[SVT666]

Reading comprehension fail.  He was talking about the XTS.

[VetteZ06]

Uh, the C-class isn't a $150,000 car.  The 08 model also had a pretty bland interior and was nothing to write home about.  Its faint praise at best.

With a full understanding of the context, I'm sure you will come to regret this post. Too bad.

[Xer0]

Reading comprehension fail.  He was talking about the XTS.

With a full understanding of the context, I'm sure you will come to regret this post. Too bad.

Doubt it.  The post itself was vague in the first place.  Besides, at introduction praise is very, very easy to come by so we'll see how it holds up.  And even then, that quote was in response to a pretty unflattering review from another member.  If your little quote means something, why doesn't his?  It really doesn't prove much of anything.  Besides all that, comparing it to a CL63 is pointless since you get much the same quality in the much, much cheaper CL550 so its inflating prices for no reason.  The XTS is a mistake and hopefully just a place holder.  It looks frumpy and weird and doesn't do Caddy any favors.

Regardless, this whole thread is stupid.  The ATS is an American 3 series.  The fact that its American is what differentiates it.  Cadillac has spent a decade building bigger, cheaper, ?not quite as good as the Germans? cars and now it feels like it can create a vehicle that has the chops to go toe to toe with the 3 series.  Good for them.  If the ATS is as good as the 3 series it will succeed in the US.  Honestly, it?s a freaking American car that is as good as its competition (well, theoretically).  Patriotism stands for something and if it?s tied to a good product then all the better.

[sportyaccordy]

You see UES folk in the S550. Now, which Cadillac competes with the S550? Not a single one, so obviously you will not see UES snobs driving around in a Cadillac. In addition, you don't see that many Cadillacs because the brand itself offers little to nothing special as of now. The brand has products that are all over the place and there is little congruency within its product line. This strategy is bad and clearly cannot continue. Cadillac is attempting to build a luxury brand, starting from the bottom and expanding up. Sure, a blowout vehicle can do wonders for the brand, but that is just one blowout vehicle (and what will that be?). All the other successful luxury brands have a full line of luxury cars. Audi was nowhere 10-15 years ago, and offered not a single knockout car. However, it developed a full line of good cars and as a result its sales are growing faster than Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes. Cadillac can still make a lot of money repeating the strategy.

It has been said before: Cadillac has little brand equity. They cannot build brand equity if they continue to offer random products that serve no particular market or need. Consistency and reliability will build its brand equity. Making big bets on unproven niches, some of which will be failures, does nothing for its brand equity. The XTS is a mistake. The ATS is not.

Audi has had a full line up since the 80s. So why did it take the B5 A4 to bring it to legitimacy? Its cars were competitive + unique, and even through the mid 90s before the A4 most of their cars had good reason to be bought over a comparable Bimmer for a large amt of customers. Hell the Audi 5000 was a huge precursor for modern auto design. So what happened?

GM is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. They and you guys are trying to rationalize them selling less car for more money in the name of "competing with the Germans". When really, for $34-35K, they're gonna be going from selling a midsize car w/a 270HP V6 to a compact car w/a 170HP 4 banger. Maybe thats "German" to you, but to me that's stupid + a ripoff. Im def curious to see how GM adds 10-15K worth of content to the CTS w/o upgrading the engines. You think folks are gonna go for that? The only companies that can get away w/that are companies w/the brand equity to get away w/selling vinyl seats in a $40K car. Cadillac is NOT one of those companies.

Porsche is a GERMAN luxury brand (according to folks here) that doesn't follow the 3/5/7 architecture. Lexus' volume models do not fit within the 3/5/7 architecture (ES, RX). BMW, Audi, Mercedes have tapped out the volume on their 3/5/7s and are growing through niches. The 3/5/7 brand model is DEAD. There's no growth in it, and barring a car that is 1000x better/different than the competition (i.e. 1990 LS) theres no way to muscle in.

[sportyaccordy]

Patriotism stands for something and if it?s tied to a good product then all the better.

I would bet there are more "foreign" cars built in the US than domestics. And the top sellers in pretty much every segment are foreign. So "patriotism" doesn't stand for much to the avg American buyer. If so the domestics would rule every segment

[VetteZ06]

GM is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. They and you guys are trying to rationalize them selling less car for more money in the name of "competing with the Germans". When really, for $34-35K, they're gonna be going from selling a midsize car w/a 270HP V6 to a compact car w/a 170HP 4 banger. Maybe thats "German" to you, but to me that's stupid + a ripoff.

Which ATS comes with 170 horses? Unless I'm totally reading it wrong, you're suggesting such a car exists.

Im def curious to see how GM adds 10-15K worth of content to the CTS w/o upgrading the engines.

Has anyone suggested the engines will NOT be upgraded? I'd be shocked if they aren't. That's pretty standard procedure.

Edit - I have a feeling the TT V-6 will find its way into the next CTS.

[VetteZ06]

Doubt it.  The post itself was vague in the first place.  Besides, at introduction praise is very, very easy to come by so we'll see how it holds up.

Right. It's pretty normal for early reviews to say Car X's interior trumps Car Y's interior despite Car X having a sticker nearly $100,000 less.

And there was nothing vague about it, given that nobody else made the same mistake you did.

[sportyaccordy]

Which ATS comes with 170 horses? Unless I'm totally reading it wrong, you're suggesting such a car exists.

Has anyone suggested the engines will NOT be upgraded? I'd be shocked if they aren't. That's pretty standard procedure.

Edit - I have a feeling the TT V-6 will find its way into the next CTS.

My bad I thought the ATS was getting an older Ecotec for the base engine

And standard procedure? What procedure are we talking about? Why would Cadillac use completely different engines for the CTS/ATS, when its standard German practice to share engines across models?

[VetteZ06]

They'll share a few (I can see the CTS having either the 2.0T or the 3.6 as a base engine), but I can almost guarantee that the CTS will either offer engines not available on the ATS (the aforementioned TT V-6, for example), or engines that are tuned for more power. If you think the CTS is only going to offer 200, 270 and ~320 horses to exactly mirror the ATS, I'm betting you'll be wrong. And, for that matter, there's no way the 2.5L shows up with 200 horses in the CTS.

[VetteZ06]

I'm also very interested in seeing how Magnetic Ride Control will affect the ATS's suspension. Being that it transformed the Camaro from a bit of a dud into a revelation in ZL1 guise, I think MRC is something unique and noteworthy that none of the ATS's competitors offer. Granted, it's not something your average car buyer will know much about, but it's an awesome piece of technology that makes a very tangible difference.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Audi has had a full line up since the 80s. So why did it take the B5 A4 to bring it to legitimacy? Its cars were competitive + unique, and even through the mid 90s before the A4 most of their cars had good reason to be bought over a comparable Bimmer for a large amt of customers. Hell the Audi 5000 was a huge precursor for modern auto design. So what happened?

GM is trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. They and you guys are trying to rationalize them selling less car for more money in the name of "competing with the Germans". When really, for $34-35K, they're gonna be going from selling a midsize car w/a 270HP V6 to a compact car w/a 170HP 4 banger. Maybe thats "German" to you, but to me that's stupid + a ripoff. Im def curious to see how GM adds 10-15K worth of content to the CTS w/o upgrading the engines. You think folks are gonna go for that? The only companies that can get away w/that are companies w/the brand equity to get away w/selling vinyl seats in a $40K car. Cadillac is NOT one of those companies.

Porsche is a GERMAN luxury brand (according to folks here) that doesn't follow the 3/5/7 architecture. Lexus' volume models do not fit within the 3/5/7 architecture (ES, RX). BMW, Audi, Mercedes have tapped out the volume on their 3/5/7s and are growing through niches. The 3/5/7 brand model is DEAD. There's no growth in it, and barring a car that is 1000x better/different than the competition (i.e. 1990 LS) theres no way to muscle in.

Those brands have established model lineups. Cadillac does not. The A7 does not sell as well as the A6 or the A8. Nor does the CLS sell as well as the E or the S. Audi and Mercedes have ESTABLISHED model lineups. Cadillac DOES NOT. BMW and Mercedes are creating niche products because they can and to increase sales. Cadillac could do exactly the same, but would not achieve nearly the success BMW or Mercedes does now simply because they lack the brand equity. Cadillac must establish itself with a solid, marketable model lineup before they can enter the obscure niche markets that sell far less vehicles than the standard markets.

How do you suppose Cadillac will get to be a volume seller like those brands without an ESTABLISHED model lineup? Cadillac has the CTS, the Escalade, SRX, and the dying bread also known as the DTS. The brand sells nowhere near as well as BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or Lexus. You want Cadillac to shock the world with something new and exciting, but what is that going to be? And how many cars will they actually sell in this new market you suggest they create?



In addition, you just said it yourself: the A4 brought Audi back to life. It was in no way, shape, or form better than the BMW 3-series, but it was JUST LIKE IT.


Car markets are very established these days. The Lexus RX forged a new market and has done tremendously, but BMW demonstrated with the 5-series GT that forging new markets is difficult. Companies can either create new markets or steal market share from competitors in current markets. Those are the two options. Why must Cadillac create a new market in the $30k range? And how successful can they be at creating a new market in that range, when clearly people like purchasing cars that adhere to the already well established formula?

[GoCougs]

I'm also very interested in seeing how Magnetic Ride Control will affect the ATS's suspension. Being that it transformed the Camaro from a bit of a dud into a revelation in ZL1 guise, I think MRC is something unique and noteworthy that none of the ATS's competitors offer. Granted, it's not something your average car buyer will know much about, but it's an awesome piece of technology that makes a very tangible difference.

True, MRC is a tangible differentiator but then again even without MRC the Camaro still outsells the Mustang (and has for 3 years straight).

In the least the CTS and ATS will have overlap with the 3.0 and/or the 3.6; maybe even the turbo-4.

[GoCougs]

A bit of Googling says the ATS 3.6 will base at $42k. Huh? That's above both the G37 and IS350...

[sportyaccordy]

Those brands have established model lineups. Cadillac does not. The A7 does not sell as well as the A6 or the A8. Nor does the CLS sell as well as the E or the S. Audi and Mercedes have ESTABLISHED model lineups. Cadillac DOES NOT. BMW and Mercedes are creating niche products because they can and to increase sales. Cadillac could do exactly the same, but would not achieve nearly the success BMW or Mercedes does now simply because they lack the brand equity. Cadillac must establish itself with a solid, marketable model lineup before they can enter the obscure niche markets that sell far less vehicles than the standard markets.

How do you suppose Cadillac will get to be a volume seller like those brands without an ESTABLISHED model lineup? Cadillac has the CTS, the Escalade, SRX, and the dying bread also known as the DTS. The brand sells nowhere near as well as BMW, Mercedes, Audi, or Lexus. You want Cadillac to shock the world with something new and exciting, but what is that going to be? And how many cars will they actually sell in this new market you suggest they create?



In addition, you just said it yourself: the A4 brought Audi back to life. It was in no way, shape, or form better than the BMW 3-series, but it was JUST LIKE IT.


Car markets are very established these days. The Lexus RX forged a new market and has done tremendously, but BMW demonstrated with the 5-series GT that forging new markets is difficult. Companies can either create new markets or steal market share from competitors in current markets. Those are the two options. Why must Cadillac create a new market in the $30k range? And how successful can they be at creating a new market in that range, when clearly people like purchasing cars that adhere to the already well established formula?

The A4 also came out at a time where its only real competition was the 3 series. How do you not see the difference in the conditions the A4, CTS, IS and G were released compared to the conditions the ATS were released? How do you not see how those cars justified themselves more in the market vs the ATS?

I am not making any specific suggestions besides Caddy not going the German route, because going other ways has worked for them in the past, and going the German route makes it more difficult for Caddy to make its cars have clear value + advantages over the competition. So you saying I suggested Caddy "create a new market in the 30k range" is false... Caddy didn't "create a new market" with the CTS, but they did do something the competition wasn't that worked. So why shouldn't they do that now?

A bit of Googling says the ATS 3.6 will base at $42k. Huh? That's above both the G37 and IS350...

People will pay the premium for the Cadillac, just like they always have

[Xer0]

I would bet there are more "foreign" cars built in the US than domestics. And the top sellers in pretty much every segment are foreign. So "patriotism" doesn't stand for much to the avg American buyer. If so the domestics would rule every segment

Your point being?  Who cares where cars are built nor does the avg buyer know.  They do know, however, that the Cadillac is an American brand.  You're delusional if you think that American buyers wouldn't appreciate an American car.  And patriotism isn't in place of a good product but it does add to the appeal.  So you have a product that's as good as the 3 series but is also American.  

Do you honestly hate this car, and are that far up Jack's ludicrous point, that you aren't even willing to consider that American car buyers value a good American car?  

[Submariner]

Who ever said the CTS' interior was one of its strong points?

Just for fun:
Did anyone ever say the CTS's interior was "noticeably finer" than a much more expensive Mercedes?

I don't remember what was said word for word, but the CTS was praised day and night for how good it's interior was.  They still look great, but then you sit in one and...oh dear. 

[Submariner]

When it first came out, I'm pretty sure most reviews were positive about the CTS's interior. But, my point is that it's not nearly as well done as the XTS interior. With the CTS it was more, "Well, at least GM can build something that's class-competitive."

Eh, I think they tried to best everyone, and at the time, they at the very least, came close.  It didn't hold up over time though, unfortunately.

The fact remains that the guy felt a $60,000 Cadillac had a "noticeably finer" interior than a Mercedes that costs about $150,000. When's the last time you ever heard such effusive praise for a Cadillac interior?

That's one reviewers opinion.  The CL gets every, single, miniscule detail right.  Top to bottom, it's over engineered and designed to the point of obsession.  Even the plastic on the door sills feels substantial.  I mean, I'll reserve final judgement for a drive, but it's going to have to be exceptional in every detail big and small to match the Germans, Japanese or Brits. 

[GoCougs]

People will pay the premium for the Cadillac, just like they always have

The point being the base CTS 3.6 costs $43k (with the base CTS 3.0 at $36k). I'm not sure what is going on here with this pricing overlap...

[Rupert]

I'm kind of surprised that anyone cares this much about Cadillac.

[Colonel Cadillac]

I'm kind of surprised that anyone cares this much about Cadillac.

Neat