So much for the sub-Boxster Porsche sports car...

[MrH]

Cayenne's around here are all over $60k new.  A smaller one over $50k will dilute the brand less than a sub $40k sports car. 

Maybe it's a cop out, but yeah, the business case for a sub-boxster doesn't make any sense and was probably the underlying reason why.  But it sounds better to say it dilutes the brand.  A $10k+ price difference between the two models would make a substantial impact on the image of the brand being a luxury marque.

[Laconian]

Hahahaha. "Varrera". That's rich.

[2o6]

Cayenne's around here are all over $60k new.  A smaller one over $50k will dilute the brand less than a sub $40k sports car. 

Maybe it's a cop out, but yeah, the business case for a sub-boxster doesn't make any sense and was probably the underlying reason why.  But it sounds better to say it dilutes the brand.  A $10k+ price difference between the two models would make a substantial impact on the image of the brand being a luxury marque.

I sort of agree. Anything less than the Boxster is a little too cheap. Should stay a VW, or even better, an Audi.

[MrH]

I sort of agree. Anything less than the Boxster is a little too cheap. Should stay a VW, or even better, an Audi.

And that's probably what's going to happen, if something like this ever ends up happening at all.

[Soup DeVille]

Hahahaha. "Varrera". That's rich.

Shades of Corvorado?

[Raza]

In the Cayenne's defense, it gives Porsche the money to build low volume sports cars. That being said, there's no reason for Porsche not to build an entry level sports car, especially if it has a development partner in VW.

I have no problem with the Cayenne's existence.  But to say that a sports car dilutes the brand just because it's not only affordable to people with 6 figure plus salaries is ridiculous when a Touareg based entry level SUV exists. 

[MrH]

I have no problem with the Cayenne's existence.  But to say that a sports car dilutes the brand just because it's not only affordable to people with 6 figure plus salaries is ridiculous when a Touareg based entry level SUV exists. 

...at $60k+

[sportyaccordy]

I sort of agree. Anything less than the Boxster is a little too cheap. Should stay a VW, or even better, an Audi.

The Cayenne should have stayed a VW/Audi. Actually it already exists as a VW AND an Audi.

Porsche is a sports car manufacturer that pads its profits with Cayamera crap because its brand has a lot of equity. But its a sports car manufacturer. Claiming a "cheap" sports car would dilute the brand more than a rebadged VW SUV is an insult.

[Raza]

Am I the only one that agrees with Porsche?

Expensive cars is Porsche's territory now.  Period.  Doesn't really matter the type of car, it needs to be expensive as hell and the top performing in its class.  That's what's equating to profits for them, and just like any business, profits drive decisions.

A cheaper sports car dilutes the brand name that's now associated with expensive.

Yup.  Porsche should only sell the 911 and tell you what color it should be.

[Raza]

...at $60k+

That's like saying that a Boxster is an 80K car because you can option it up to that level.  The Cayenne starts at about $1,000 less than a Boxster.  

You're flat out wrong in saying that Porsche only makes extremely expensive cars. 

[MrH]

That's like saying that a Boxster is an 80K car because you can option it up to that level.  The Cayenne starts at about $1,000 less than a Boxster. 

You're flat out wrong in saying that Porsche only makes extremely expensive cars. 

I couldn't find a Cayenne under $60k.  The mini-SUV market is much bigger, and can warrant another model within a $10k price difference.  The 2-seater convertible market isn't that big.

[MX793]

I couldn't find a Cayenne under $60k.  The mini-SUV market is much bigger, and can warrant another model within a $10k price difference.  The 2-seater convertible market isn't that big.

Just because dealers don't stock them on their lots doesn't mean you can't get them.

[sportyaccordy]

I couldn't find a Cayenne under $60k.

Where did you look?

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?zip=11510&endYear=2013&modelCode1=CAYENNE&startYear=1981&makeCode1=POR&numRecords=25&searchRadius=0&maxPrice=60000&showcaseOwnerId=65539567&Log=0

http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne/

[MrH]

  Those are used.

[sportyaccordy]

 Those are used.

http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne/
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne-diesel/

Let me guess, those don't count, despite gas V6s alone making up 1/3 of Cayenne sales

[MrH]

I said I couldn't find a new one for under $60k on the lot...

Reading comprehension fail.

[sportyaccordy]

Like people said, you can easily order one. What you can "find" is irrelevant.

[MrH]

Transaction price of the vehicle is totally relevant.

[Rupert]

The Cayenne should have stayed a VW/Audi. Actually it already exists as a VW AND an Audi.

Porsche is a sports car manufacturer that pads its profits with Cayamera crap because its brand has a lot of equity. But its a sports car manufacturer. Claiming a "cheap" sports car would dilute the brand more than a rebadged VW SUV is an insult.

No, Porsche is a marketing group with an engineering arm.

[MrH]

No, Porsche is a marketing group with an engineering arm.

Wow, that's a hell of a talented marketing group for producing some of the best performing cars out there.

[Rupert]

Luck.

[sportyaccordy]

They finished the engineering decades ago

[MX793]

  Those are used.

Not all of them.  Set the filter to "new cars only", it turns up several priced under $60K.

[MX793]

Transaction price of the vehicle is totally relevant.

Not everybody buys them off the lot.  I couldn't find a Mustang on the lot with the powertrain and options I wanted.  Obviously that didn't mean the car didn't exist or couldn't be had, I just had to order it from the factory.

[omicron]

Mmm, I think I'm with the majority here. A cheaper Porsche is not a cheapened Porsche - damage to the brand will surely occur if the execution is lacking, but not if it's a well-built, well-equipped, Porsche-engined thoroughbred. Diesel V6 SUVs are great for business but as close to core Porsche values as I am to the Presidency.

[Tave]

Let me guess, those don't count, despite gas V6s alone making up 1/3 of Cayenne sales

That's a pretty damning statistic for your case. It means that a significant majority of Cayennes are sold with the more expensive engines, exactly the opposite of what typically happens when an automaker offers engine options. It means that buyers are freely spending a lot of cash on these vehicles. I bet people are optioning-out the V6 too (and it's still a $50K car even if you manage to find a "stripper").

I'm with Mr.H on this one. Cayennes and Panameras may not be traditional Porsche-type cars but they're still fairly exclusive. I think Porsche needs to retain that exclusivity going forward.

As it stands even the Boxster generates some controversy among Porsche buyers and it's somewhat exclusive itself, relatively speaking of course.


The sub-Cayenne SUV is a bad idea too, hope they wake up on that.


Another important thing to consider when you talk about Porsche is their profit margins on a per-vehicle basis are generally at the top of the industry. That fact is crucial to their revenue stream. They would be testing much slimmer margins on a sub-Boxster sports car.

[sportyaccordy]

Like I already said. A 2 seat sports car that will prob cost 1.5-2x the price of a Miata is still plenty exclusive. You guys are talking relative within the Porsche brand. But on the grand scale this "sub Boxster" would still be a relatively exclusive car.

And again, given Porsche's history (356, early 911, 924/944, hell even the original Boxster), there's no way this thing could damage the brand. Plus they could continue their criminal pricing schemes and just have a super stripper to have a teaser entry price. As long as its at least 10K away from a comparable Boxster they will be fine.

Or they could just throw the VAG 2.0T into the Boxster... I remember there being talks of something like that going down. It would prob amount to the same thing.

[Raza]

I couldn't find a Cayenne under $60k.  The mini-SUV market is much bigger, and can warrant another model within a $10k price difference.  The 2-seater convertible market isn't that big.

Sure, the market is smaller.  No one is arguing otherwise. 

[Xer0]

I can kind of see the point.  Porsche has morphed into being more of an executive car brand then a straight up sports car brand.  Besides, why sell a lower priced ?pure? model when Porsche already gets away with selling stripped out Boxsters/Caymans for more anyway?  Further, MrH?s point that 9K between 2 seat sports cars is different than 9K between SUV?s is a significant one.  In SUV?s (and sedans) space is at a premium and people are willing to pony up to get a more comfortable car for their family.  Also, some people just don?t need that much space so why get forced into the bigger car?  Yet what tangible benefits would two similarly priced 2 seat sports cars have?  The Boxster/Cayman are already small/light sports cars that are competing for the spot as a second or third car.  People are more willing to spend that 10k to get the car they want if its something this discretionary rather than the family that is looking to maximize their budget for their needs (well, however much your average Porsche owner cares).  Adding a second, slightly cheaper one underneath is probably pointless.

I guess the point I?m trying to get at is that the Cajun/Cayanne/Panamera are family vehicles that everyone will have to buy which is why they exist and it doesn?t dilute Porsche?s premium brand since they are the top performing vehicles in their class.  The Boxster/Cayman are discretionary third vehicles for fun/showing off and it would be pointless to have a slightly cheaper one underneath.  If anything, they will probably release a less powerful Boxster as the base model to cover this.

[sportyaccordy]

I think everyone pretty much agrees a sub Boxster wouldn't be a good business idea. There was talk of 4 banger Boxsters and Caymans. That makes way more sense and is prob what's gonna happen.

The contention is that it would dilute the brand, while a Porsche SUV doesn't.

All this talk of, "well Porsche is an executive car brand" would make sense, if it wasn't still wholly associated w/the 911, to the point that Porsche tries to slap the face and ass of the 911 on everything it makes. So even if its not an exclusively sports car brand, a sports car is still central to its identity. So outside the realm of business and purely in the realm of branding, MrH's point makes no sense. A brand whose whole identity is centered around a sports car cannot be diluted by making another sports car.