Raptor vs. Ram Runner: the battle is over

[S204STi]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/21/svt-boss-goes-on-record-about-ford-raptor-frame-damage-claims-w/

Excellent explanation.

Cliffnotes for HD and Rohan:  the frame bent like that because it completely bottomed the suspension to the point that the energy involved collapsed not only the suspension, but also the bump-stops, the bump-stop cups, and ultimately the frame itself.  The frame bending is in fact designed to keep the truck from doing an end-o from driving like a douche.

[S204STi]

Other tidbits from that interview that were telling:

"If you look at the video [above], in our opinion, the truck performed flawlessly through there ? it didn't do anything crazy from a vehicle dynamics standpoint. It didn't put the truck into an unsafe condition and it didn't strand the driver. If you hear their voices [on the video], you can hear them go 'Argh!!' when they went over that. That's not a good thing for any vehicle when you hit that hard, that fast. The other thing is that we run microcellular jounce bumpers that are progressive rate ? this is why we run that kind of jounce bumper.

The other thing that's going on... we've had some reports that there's an aftermarket company offering aftermarket springs, and instead of the two or three-leaf of the production truck, they offer a multiple stack leaf, and what that does is, it actually deletes the jounce bumper landing pad, which is kind of critical.

We don't know how many ? if it's all of them or if it's a fraction of them ? but we know some of them were running those multiple leaf springs with the jounce bumper landing pad deleted. Obviously, the suspension was designed to work with all of its parts intact."

Modifying the vehicle, driving too fast for the road, etc.  Can't blame the truck for frame failure if you operate the vehicle in such a way as to remove the factors protecting it from harm.

[GoCougs]

If I remember correctly you were the one that claimed the Toyota Tacoma TRD could do what the Raptor does.

Now to address your comments:
1. It is the only factory built truck that can do what the Raptor does.  Period.

2. Never said it was the biggest. 

3. It is the fastest factory built truck off pavement.  Period.

4. It is the most powerful factory built V8 gas powered pickup truck.  Period.

5. Never said it had the best economy.

6. It is the most capable factory built pickup truck in off road conditions.  Period.



You have proven nothing except that if one wants to, they can spend a lot more money than it costs to buy a Raptor to buy a kit to turn their Ram into Raptor killer.  When Ram starts selling the Runner on dealer lots with a warranty, then my current statements will no longer be factual.  But at this time, they are.

Why are you trying so hard?

[Cookie Monster]

No, it's not rocket science, but it's not something you and I could do in my garage with a few wrenches.  It is complex stuff, especially when dealing with components that big and heavy and with that kind of compression (springs).  Personally, I don't want to running 50 mph offroad in a truck with a specialty suspension I bolted in their myself.
No, that is absolutely very cool.  It's awesome in fact.  But comparing apples to apples the Raptor is the better deal.  If you want to take an '09 with 150,000 miles on the clock and turn it into a Ram Runner, then there is nothing else that compares.

What's so complex about bolting in suspension stuff?

[280Z Turbo]

What's so complex about bolting in suspension stuff?

Idiots do it all the time.

[Cookie Monster]

I'm an idiot and I did it to my car and then took it auto-x'ing which is also hard on suspension (granted, not as hard as a couple ton truck landing a jump, but still it's easily doable).

In fact I'd trust myself way more to do it properly than some shadetree mechanic who might have half-assed the install.

[hotrodalex]

Excellent explanation.

Cliffnotes for HD and Rohan:  the frame bent like that because it completely bottomed the suspension to the point that the energy involved collapsed not only the suspension, but also the bump-stops, the bump-stop cups, and ultimately the frame itself.  The frame bending is in fact designed to keep the truck from doing an end-o from driving like a douche.

I also found a post on another forum that explains it.

I think the point that is being missed by some is that stiffening the frame to prevent it from yielding would not solve the problem. His explanation is clear and accurate in the video. If you are at the top of your shock travel and more jounce is needed to absorb a bump, something has to give.

A good engineer will design the parts to fail gracefully and minimize danger and safety hazards to the driver and passengers. In this case the truck has been designed correctly and it responded in the best possible way to abuse.

And for those of you annoyed that Jamal made it sound like the frame was supposed to bend. Get over it, he is right, properly engineered parts are designed to fail gracefully. Infinite stiffness is never the target.

Essentially once you run out of shock travel there are the following options:

1) break upper shock mounting (leaves user stranded)
2) break lower shock mounting (leaves user stranded)
3) yield frame (takes the energy and safely dissipates it, vehicle and driver unharmed and still mobile)

if it had:

4) extremely stiff overbuilt frame and suspension mounting points (energy would just push the rear of the truck up and over "donkey kick" which could lead to noseplant or forward rollover crash very likely injury or y/death and vehicle write off)

#3 is the best option.

[MrH]

That guy is an idiot.

[GoCougs]

A bit too much spin IMO...

ANY truck maker is performing the noted macro structural analysis under a whole host of conditions; towing, loading, and especially, crashes. It?s better PR to say it was "feature by design" rather than to simply say the driver was just an idiot and broke the truck. ANY truck will bend when abused in such a manner; there is nothing unique about the Raptor (or any truck) in this regard.  

Buyers and fanboys have to realize that the is at the end of the day a mass-produced factory F150 with the same frame as the $25k V6 model; it ain't this monster baja trophy rig that apparently some think it is. Simply look at this frame-bending video (see about the 1:33 mark). Proof positive is this wasn't more than a ~6? obstacle on a smooth gravel road that did the frame in.

[SVT666]

A bit too much spin IMO...

ANY truck maker is performing the noted macro structural analysis under a whole host of conditions; towing, loading, and especially, crashes. It?s better PR to say it was "feature by design" rather than to simply say the driver was just an idiot and broke the truck. ANY truck will bend when abused in such a manner; there is nothing unique about the Raptor (or any truck) in this regard.  

Buyers and fanboys have to realize that the is at the end of the day a mass-produced factory F150 with the same frame as the $25k V6 model; it ain't this monster baja trophy rig that apparently some think it is. Simply look at this frame-bending video (see about the 1:33 mark). Proof positive is this wasn't more than a ~6? obstacle on a smooth gravel road that did the frame in.

HAHA!  You are so full of shit.  A 6" obstacle wouldn't have unsettled the truck, let alone break it.  HAHA!

[SVT666]

No surprise really - one is a not much more than a factory fanboy rig and the other ("winner") is a purpose-built aftermarket rig. No one who drives like this will do it in the former if but for nothing else (apropos to bent frames) than damage would/should not be covered by warranty or insurance (if the driver were honest how it happened).

The Ram Runner should cost a lot more - it's a more capable, purpose-built low-volume vehicle with a far more capable (costly) suspension with enhancements and upgrades not found on the Ford (cut fenders F&R, fancy bumper/skidplate, hood w/scoops, stainless dual exhaust w/cut outs, aftermarket CAI, tire carrier).

1. The Ram Runner uses the same frame as the standard V6 Ram does...just like the Raptor uses the same frame as a standard V6 F-150. 

2. The Ram Runner uses almost the same suspension, including the same Fox shocks (with 2" additional travel) as the Raptor. 

3. The Ram is no more purpose built than the Raptor is.  If having hood scoops, CAI, and a tire carrier make it purpose built, then there are a lot of purpose built Baja trucks running around Redneck America. 

[GoCougs]

HAHA!  You are so full of shit.  A 6" obstacle wouldn't have unsettled the truck.  HAHA!

~6" was probably generous:

[GoCougs]

1. The Ram Runner uses the same frame as the standard V6 Ram does...just like the Raptor uses the same frame as a standard V6 F-150. 

2. The Ram Runner uses almost the same suspension, including the same Fox shocks (with 2" additional travel) as the Raptor. 

3. The Ram is no more purpose built than the Raptor is.  If having hood scoops, CAI, and a tire carrier make it purpose built, then there are a lot of purpose built Baja trucks running around Redneck America. 

If the Ram Runner is no more purpose built how is it that it's clearly the faster rig over that entire course despite the Raptor having more HP and better gearing, and achieving the higher peak speed by ~5 mph?

[SVT666]

~6" was probably generous:

You can't tell very much from that video except that it's definitely at least twice the size of a speed bump.  We have all seen videos of the Raptor taking much worse than 6" without trouble.  The biggest problem here is that they hit the obstacle at 80+ mph which Ford says is unsafe.  They don't recommend speeds over 60 mph in these kinds of conditions.

[SVT666]

If the Ram Runner is no more purpose built how is it that it's clearly the faster rig over that entire course despite the Raptor having more HP and better gearing, and achieving the higher peak speed by ~5 mph?

The professional driver they had summed it up at the end of the video.  Did you even watch it?  He said that the Raptor works really well and handles everything you can throw at it.  He even said it was great over the medium stuff.  He said the Ram Runner took the lead through the "gnarly" stuff because of the slightly stiffer springs, 2" of extra travel, and the higher ground clearance. 

He even said it was hard to compare them because they were both better at some things than the other.

[280Z Turbo]

Buying a brand new $42,000 truck and beating the shit out of it is stupid anyways. I'd buy this:

http://battlecreek.craigslist.org/cto/3058940543.html

and beat on it.

[SVT666]

Why would you beat on a classic?

[280Z Turbo]

Good point, there's probably only 567,875 '97 F-150s left.

[SVT666]

Good point, there's probably only 567,875 '97 F-150s left.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to run out.

[280Z Turbo]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to run out.

I'd keep at least three spare frames on hand.

[SVT666]

I'd keep at least three spare frames on hand.

Good idea. 

[280Z Turbo]

It seems to me that welding in some gussets/plates/braces would be a good idea if you were going to do this kind of thing. The frame should never be a fusible link.

[GoCougs]

You can't tell very much from that video except that it's definitely at least twice the size of a speed bump.  We have all seen videos of the Raptor taking much worse than 6" without trouble.  The biggest problem here is that they hit the obstacle at 80+ mph which Ford says is unsafe.  They don't recommend speeds over 60 mph in these kinds of conditions.

In short, so small you can hardly tell by the video = ~6".

[GoCougs]

The professional driver they had summed it up at the end of the video.  Did you even watch it?  He said that the Raptor works really well and handles everything you can throw at it.  He even said it was great over the medium stuff.  He said the Ram Runner took the lead through the "gnarly" stuff because of the slightly stiffer springs, 2" of extra travel, and the higher ground clearance.  

He even said it was hard to compare them because they were both better at some things than the other.

In short, so the Ram Runner performed better on the course and off road in general = (more) specific built.

[GoCougs]

It seems to me that welding in some gussets/plates/braces would be a good idea if you were going to do this kind of thing. The frame should never be a fusible link.

I'm going to guess the utility would be limited. The key is to absorb the energy before it gets into the frame, and that is with more suspension travel and more performance-specific springs and shocks. There's also the possible challenge of welding on a frame (= probably heat treated, alloyed, etc.).

[SVT666]

In short, so small you can hardly tell by the video = ~6".

:rolleyes"  Yeah, it was 6" alright.  6" caused the trucks suspension to travel 12" to bottom out so hard it bent the frame.  You don't know shit.

[SVT666]

In short, so the Ram Runner performed better on the course and off road in general = (more) specific built.

According to you though, just fitting a different suspension to a truck isn't "purpose-built", so the Ram is no more purpose built than the Raptor.  You can't have your cake and eat it too Joe. 

[GoCougs]

According to you though, just fitting a different suspension to a truck isn't "purpose-built", so the Ram is no more purpose built than the Raptor.  You can't have your cake and eat it too Joe. 

The Ram Runner bested the Raptor because it was specifically built to do so. Everyone else in the thread accepts this fact why can't you?

[SVT666]

The Ram Runner bested the Raptor because it was specifically built to do so. Everyone else in the thread accepts this fact why can't you?

I do accept it, but your claim that the Runner is purpose built and the Raptor isn't is bullshit.   

[hotrodalex]

A bit too much spin IMO...

ANY truck maker is performing the noted macro structural analysis under a whole host of conditions; towing, loading, and especially, crashes. It?s better PR to say it was "feature by design" rather than to simply say the driver was just an idiot and broke the truck. ANY truck will bend when abused in such a manner; there is nothing unique about the Raptor (or any truck) in this regard. 

Buyers and fanboys have to realize that the is at the end of the day a mass-produced factory F150 with the same frame as the $25k V6 model; it ain't this monster baja trophy rig that apparently some think it is. Simply look at this frame-bending video (see about the 1:33 mark). Proof positive is this wasn't more than a ~6? obstacle on a smooth gravel road that did the frame in.

I don't think anyone ever said it was a specific feature unique to the Raptor. It's something any truck will do when pushed too far. Thus, it's not the fault of the truck - it's the driver.

Someone should take the Ram on the same course and see what happens.