Best-selling cars of June 2012

[TurboDan]

I have to say, LOL at all this "elithusiast" gospel. This is painful.

I agree, even though I started it. 

I just don't get why people "downgrade" their cars once they have children, or whatever. I still maintain most families buy Camrys after a husband rolls over and gives into his wife's nagging that he shouldn't buy a cooler/more expensive vehicle because cars are not a priority for her (so everyone should suffer).

[MrH]

Trollin'?

Dead serious.  It's no Miata or anything, but compared to everything else in the class?  Pretty great.

[CJ]

My dad finally got a 2012 Camry SE as a rental in California a few weeks ago.  He liked the interior, but not as much as his Sonata.  Said the steering was a little more communicative.  He liked it enough, but felt his Sonata is a better car.  I don't blame him. 

[2o6]

I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.

As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?

The A4 is one of the more cramped entry-level cars....legroom comes in at 35.2" inches in the rear.

For comparison, this is actually SMALLER than the rear legroom in my Yaris. (35.6", not much of a difference, but keep in mind that my Yaris is roughly 1/3 of the price)

Camry's legroom is at around 42" or so.

I agree, even though I started it. 

I just don't get why people "downgrade" their cars once they have children, or whatever. I still maintain most families buy Camrys after a husband rolls over and gives into his wife's nagging that he shouldn't buy a cooler/more expensive vehicle because cars are not a priority for her (so everyone should suffer).

Because entry-level luxury cars aren't all that great for many people. They generally are expensive to fix, hard to work on, and more expensive to own, buy and pretty much use.

Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.

The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?

I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.

You DO realize that the price difference between a Camry and a 3-series or similar is close to $12000?

[Vinsanity]

I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.

As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?

When the cars get up in age, the cost to keep the Audi on the road will be painful compared to the Camry.

[Vinsanity]

My dad finally got a 2012 Camry SE as a rental in California a few weeks ago.  He liked the interior, but not as much as his Sonata.  Said the steering was a little more communicative.  He liked it enough, but felt his Sonata is a better car.  I don't blame him. 

The Camry's steering is more communicative than the Sonata's? That doesn't quite fare well for the Sonata, because the Camry still felt more like a driving simulator than an actual car. I still maintain that they're both great cars for their intended purpose.

[Lebowski]

I agree, even though I started it.  

I just don't get why people "downgrade" their cars once they have children, or whatever. I still maintain most families buy Camrys after a husband rolls over and gives into his wife's nagging that he shouldn't buy a cooler/more expensive vehicle because cars are not a priority for her (so everyone should suffer).

Pretty straightforward really, there's less discretionary income remaining after starting a family - kids are 'f-in expensive.

That, and there is a significant difference in space between a Camry an A4.

[CJ]

The Camry's steering is more communicative than the Sonata's? That doesn't quite fare well for the Sonata, because the Camry still felt more like a driving simulator than an actual car. I still maintain that they're both great cars for their intended purpose.

Yeah.  The Sonata's EPS isn't very well dialed in, honestly.  I like the variable assist, but the Camry does have better feedback.  It also has EPS, but it's just marginally better.  It's still a Camry.  If the Elantra GT is any indication of things to come with Hyundai's EPS, then I think we'll have a winner.

[SVT666]

I've sat in both. I didn't personally feel the space difference was enough to make anyone bat an eye. How much space do you need in a midsize sedan, anyway? If you need to haul a ton of stuff, you have an SUV or minivan for that. Two adults and a car seat in an A4 is perfectly reasonable. Hell, it's perfectly reasonable in the Jetta, too.

As for price, we're not going to be talking about more than a $100 difference per month between Camry/A4. If you're going for the Camry V6, probably less. Is that really going to break many banks?

Every dollar counts when you have kids.  I just priced them out on their Canadian websites.  $33,700 for a Camry V6 XLE ($526 a month not incl. tax), and $45,200 for a Audi A4 Premium ($850 a month not incl. tax).  Also, the A4 is quite a bit smaller than a Camry/Accord/Fusion.

[Northlands]

Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.

The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?

I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.

It's not a boring thing. People just head towards things that are more value oriented. If one can get a vehicle that does every mundane task they want quite proficiently, they'll get the one that does it for the least amount of dollars. There are cars out there that are better in multiple aspects compared to Camcords, but overall for the money, they are an easy pick for some people who don't want to worry about that car in their fleet since it's going to need to be the most reliable one in their fleet.

Hell, we're a two car family, and in a number of years, probably a three car. But I'm planning on one of those cars to be a vanilla dull / worry free kind of car.  One of the others will be more entertaining to drive.

[nickdrinkwater]

That's a willfully ignorant comment. You can like the freedom of a car and of driving -- as most Americans do -- without caring which particular machine allows you that freedom. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Exactly.  That's a person who doesn't like cars, more freedom.

[Raza]

That's a willfully ignorant comment. You can like the freedom of a car and of driving -- as most Americans do -- without caring which particular machine allows you that freedom. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Your statement and mine are not mutually exclusive.  Enjoying the freedom of a car is not the same thing as liking cars.  Very much in the same way that mailing a letter doesn't make you a stamp collector. 

I never said there was anything wrong with it.  All I said it was a car for people who don't like cars.  Whether they view driving as a chore or a means to an end makes no difference; they're still people who don't like cars. 

[Raza]

I suspect when a number of you decide you want to multiply and have a couple of more kids, you'll begin to see why so many people decide on Camcords or minivans as a family transport. No one is pretending they are dynamic handling sports machines, but the cars/vans offer a lot of space and little maintenance and decent mileage. When you've got mouths to feed, aspects like this are worth their weight in gold because you just don't have the time to worry about silly little issues with the family mobile.

And no one is saying they're bad cars or that people shouldn't buy them.  Just that they're made for and marketed to people whose car decision making process is dictated far more by need than want.  Which is fine.  Just don't expect enthusiasts to like them. 

[Raza]

Hey, I'm a single guy in my 20s and can see why people buy minivans. They offer a shit-ton of space and utility and a lot of them come with lots of great features to maximize space and comfort.

The Camry, though? Why, if I had children and was looking for a midsize sedan, would I buy that over the A4, for example? It's a 4-inch difference in terms of size, and backseat space isn't significantly different. The only real difference is trunk size (A4 has 3 cu ft less) but most families with children have vans or SUVs for long trips anyway. Why does one have to buy a boring, mediocre car just because they have children? I never understood this. Why can't you buy a comparably-sized vehicle that has better overall driving dynamics, style, and cachet?

I refuse to believe it's because people get instantly boring when they have kids. I, at one time, was a kid. And my parents never lowered the bar on the vehicles they bought. They purchased whatever they wanted.

Budgets are a thing too.  The A4 is more expensive to buy and more expensive to maintain, and despite only being a little smaller, the Camry is still a size class up and a lot of people buy on space per dollar.  I get why people buy them.  Although, were I in the position of having to buy a mainstream midsize sedan, I'd still be looking at the Passat first (well, not the current generation, but I really love the last gen).

[ifcar]

Your statement and mine are not mutually exclusive.  Enjoying the freedom of a car is not the same thing as liking cars.  Very much in the same way that mailing a letter doesn't make you a stamp collector. 

I never said there was anything wrong with it.  All I said it was a car for people who don't like cars.  Whether they view driving as a chore or a means to an end makes no difference; they're still people who don't like cars. 

Not liking is not the same as not having a strong preference. I like computers but I'm not a computer enthusiast.

[GoCougs]

So my track record of having yet to see cogent Camry haterism remains intact...

See, me as a big automotive enthusiast, I love seeing haters get their comeuppance, and why it's a big LOL for me to remind haters that the Camry (V6) keeps pace if not shows taillights to an A4, 328i, C300, etc., and other notable "performance" vehicles.

A lol on Camry vs. A4 - what? The Camry is ginormous inside compared to the A4.

[TurboDan]

So my track record of having yet to see cogent Camry haterism remains intact...

See, me as a big automotive enthusiast, I love seeing haters get their comeuppance, and why it's a big LOL for me to remind haters that the Camry (V6) keeps pace if not shows taillights to an A4, 328i, C300, etc., and other notable "performance" vehicles.

I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.

I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.

A lol on Camry vs. A4 - what? The Camry is ginormous inside compared to the A4.

I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.

[Cookie Monster]

I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.

I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.

Uh, have you ever maybe thought that some people just want something roomy, comfortable and reliable for a good price, and don't care about the driving dynamics?

Hard to believe, but the world doesn't revolve around you...

[GoCougs]

Uh, have you ever maybe thought that some people just want something roomy, comfortable and reliable for a good price, and don't care about the driving dynamics?

Hard to believe, but the world doesn't revolve around you...

Another facet of Camry haterism I find interesting - 90% of new A4/C300/328i buyers don't care about driving dynamics either; they're buying a badge first, styling second, and "luxury" third. Add in the elevated maintenance and repair costs, less reliability, and compromises on interior space, and it's no wonder a new Camry sells sells ginormously more than a slightly used A4/C300/328i of the same approximate cost.

[GoCougs]

I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.

I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.

No offense but your "theory" is somewhere between faked moon shots and UFO abductions. People buy the Camry in droves because it is a great car.

I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.

My point was I don't see who someone who has sat in either car can't come to the conclusion that the Camry is way way bigger. Interior space counts, and it's compromised on the "entry level" luxury cars, and it's a justifiable problem for a lot of people.

[TurboDan]

No offense but your "theory" is somewhere between faked moon shots and UFO abductions. People buy the Camry in droves because it is a great car.

It's a mediocre car that does everything adequately, but nothing excellently.

My point was I don't see who someone who has sat in either car can't come to the conclusion that the Camry is way way bigger. Interior space counts, and it's compromised on the "entry level" luxury cars, and it's a justifiable problem for a lot of people.

On a midsize sedan, the only type of space that counts is legroom. The front seats on the A4 are just fine for adults, and the rear seats are just fine for children or a car seat. Actually, as long as you're not obese, the rear seats are just fine for an adult as well. Trunk space is average. If you need a significant amount of additional space, the Camry isn't going to help you. You need and SUV or minivan.

Also, FWIW, I see the ever-increasing proportions of midsize cars as just as much of a compromise when it comes to pulling into parking spaces, maneuvers on the highway and a number of other situations. Again, why does a midsize car have to be so large? Is the few extra inches of space really usable space, or is it just superfluous excess that translates into a car that is unnecessarily large?

[CALL_911]

It's a mediocre car

Let me nip your post in the bud. No, it really isn't.

[Raza]

So my track record of having yet to see cogent Camry haterism remains intact...

See, me as a big automotive enthusiast, I love seeing haters get their comeuppance, and why it's a big LOL for me to remind haters that the Camry (V6) keeps pace if not shows taillights to an A4, 328i, C300, etc., and other notable "performance" vehicles.

A lol on Camry vs. A4 - what? The Camry is ginormous inside compared to the A4.

When will you ever understand that performance is more than straight line performance? 

[Lebowski]

I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.

I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.

I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.

1)  Most people are not car enthusiasts (that's ok).

2)  The space difference between a Camry and an A4 is significant (and if all that matters is legroom, why are you talking about obesity?  You don't have to be obese to think the A4 backseat lacks space)

3)  The cost difference between a Camry and A4 is significant.  To an upper middle class family of four with two cars, the cost difference is very significant.

4)  This is probably more subjective, but IMO the reliability + maintenance advantage of a Camry over an A4 is not insignificant.

Your argument makes no sense ... In fact, I often find myself asking the complete opposite question, namely why do so many people who aren't into cars choose to drive such expensive ones?  For an upper middle class guy with a family who isn't into cars (and many aren't), driving a $45k A4 makes zero practical sense IMO.

[2o6]

I wouldn't buy a 3er, C-Class or A4 to win races. If I cared that much about speed I'd buy something with a V8. Like most cars, the 3er and A4 have their compromises. However they both sufficiently whoop the Camry V6 in just about everything except 0-60. And in all honesty, do most Camry drivers use their engine to its limit? Who buys a Camry for its "performance?" Anyone who cares about that stuff wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry to begin with.

I guess I'll relent. I understand why people buy them - the price. That's understandable. But I don't think they cost so much less than more desirable cars to justify the crazy sales totals. I still maintain the sales numbers are boosted by wives screaming at their husbands, "don't spend a penny more on a damn car than you have to" or "can't you just buy a sensible car like everyone else?" Ugh. Chill down my spine.

A base Camry starts at 22K. A base 2.0T FWD CVT auto A4 starts at 32K. That's a HUGE difference. That's at least another $100 or so in monthly payments.

I was talking about a mother, father and a child in a car seat. Why is the A4 insufficient for this role? It doesn't matter if the Camry has a little more space. You can't haul a lot of shit in either of these cars. You can't tow much in either of these cars (I think I've seen like 5 in my life with hitches installed). If you really need tons of space, you need an SUV or minivan. How much space do people need in a midsize sedan? I never felt cramped in my Passat or my Saab, not once.

Not only are midsizers notably roomier, but the way the seats are configured, it's a lot more workable for those who have kids.

[Atomic]

I don't recall noticing a new Escape on the streets, either.

I have seen a fleet at a Hertz nearby. A few at dealerships but none on roadways just yet. I am thinking it will not be long. Tradionalists have been bashing it but I think it looks great... Still, I understand owners of the outgoing model disliking it -- it's totally different. They will either come around or go elsewhere. I think Ford will bring in younger customers and import oriented buyers with its new edgier styling theme and what I expect to be a far better put together small 'ute/crossover.

[TurboDan]

I have seen a fleet at a Hertz nearby. A few at dealerships but none on roadways just yet. I am thinking it will not be long. Tradionalists have been bashing it but I think it looks great... Still, I understand owners of the outgoing model disliking it -- it's totally different. They will either come around or go elsewhere. I think Ford will bring in younger customers and import oriented buyers with its new edgier styling theme and what I expect to be a far better put together small 'ute/crossover.

I wonder where the old Escape owners will go, though. There aren't too many SUV-ish looking small SUVs left. I guess the Liberty, for now, but what happens after that gets crossover'd when the new Liberty/Cherokee comes out? The Xterra is a lot bigger, and the LR2 will be around and maintain a more traditional SUV shape in its next iteration, but it's $10-15K more expensive.

[2o6]

I wonder where the old Escape owners will go, though. There aren't too many SUV-ish looking small SUVs left. I guess the Liberty, for now, but what happens after that gets crossover'd when the Cherokee comes out? The Xterra is a lot bigger, and the LR2 will be around and maintain a more traditional SUV shape in its next iteration, but it's $10K more expensive.

Old Escape owners will buy new Escapes or similar. The new Escape is a vastly better vehicle (or at least should be) than the old one which has roots from 2001. Liberty has that "SUV" look, but both it and Xterra are terrible on-road (which is honestly what most SUV buyers are looking for).



Besides, I think the Evoque has made sales of the LR2 fall in the toilet...

[2o6]

I have seen a fleet at a Hertz nearby. A few at dealerships but none on roadways just yet. I am thinking it will not be long. Tradionalists have been bashing it but I think it looks great... Still, I understand owners of the outgoing model disliking it -- it's totally different. They will either come around or go elsewhere. I think Ford will bring in younger customers and import oriented buyers with its new edgier styling theme and what I expect to be a far better put together small 'ute/crossover.

I've seen quite a few on the roads here.

[TurboDan]

Old Escape owners will buy new Escapes or similar. The new Escape is a vastly better vehicle (or at least should be) than the old one which has roots from 2001. Liberty has that "SUV" look, but both it and Xterra are terrible on-road (which is honestly what most SUV buyers are looking for).



Besides, I think the Evoque has made sales of the LR2 fall in the toilet...

I dunno. Around here, lots of people like having a small SUV that's actually capable of towing a boat up a slipper and steep ramp, riding on the beach, etc. Will these people buy the new model? Will males buy the much-more-feminine looking new Escape?

LR is in a transition period right now. They want Range Rover to be its own premium brand, and Land Rover to go somewhat downmarket and be more offroad-oriented. I suspect the next Freelander (LR2) will remain in the U.S. market, but as a more refined option rather than the entry level Defender, which will be slated to compete against the Wrangler.