Opel Adam....

[nickdrinkwater]

Exactly.

The way I see it, the Audi A1 stands for sophistication. The MINI and Fiat 500 stand for heritage and cult factor. The Citroen DS3 has design heritage on its side from a manufacturer known for daring design and innovation. This thing leaves me emotionless and bored.

The whole car looks stupid and like rip-off of the 500 (in terms of design). It doesn't look cute to me at all but like a "wannabe Fiat 500".


Not to mention the dumb marketing campaign behind it.



I swear this is retard German in the speech bubbles. Just like the target market obviously. 


The only car that interests me in this class is this. 

It's those stupid DRLs that put me off the DS3, and the Citroen (lack of) quality & reliability.  Otherwise, it looks great

[sportyaccordy]

Wimmer doesn't believe in quality/reliability

[AltinD]

^^ And you don't believe in comfort/design/sofistication .... basically anything modern

[sportyaccordy]

^^ And you don't believe in comfort/design/sofistication .... basically anything modern

This should be good. Example?

*EDIT* My bike is a 2006 model, by the way.

[cawimmer430]

More like Fish-Eye :P

Ah, I didn't think about that. You might be right.



But it could also be a wide angle lens distortion. I get that effect to (not as extreme) with my wide angle lens.

[cawimmer430]

It's those stupid DRLs that put me off the DS3, and the Citroen (lack of) quality & reliability.  Otherwise, it looks great

Current Citroens are quality products and their reliability has improved big time. The old C5 was a bit sketchy in terms of reliability, not the new one.

Auto Motor und Sport just finished a 100,000 km test with their C5 Tourer and it was basically very reliable. Owners write to the magazine about their experiences with the car and these are also positive.

Also, I checked out a website where German taxi drivers reported their experiences with the current C5 and they're all reporting positive experiences with the car. And these are people who have driven these cars upwards of 200,000 km. Keep in mind that as a taxi there is a lot of abuse and wear and tear on the car.

So, what does this tell me? It's a reliable car with few faults. If there are problems they can be fixed in a few minutes/hours. Big deal. There's a Citroen dealership near me anyway.

[Payman]

I'd jam, glam and slam her.

[Raza]

I'd jam, glam and slam her.

Me too.

[Galaxy]

 

I'd jam, glam and slam her.

Me too.

What is Glam in this context?

[nickdrinkwater]

Current Citroens are quality products and their reliability has improved big time. The old C5 was a bit sketchy in terms of reliability, not the new one.

Auto Motor und Sport just finished a 100,000 km test with their C5 Tourer and it was basically very reliable. Owners write to the magazine about their experiences with the car and these are also positive.

Also, I checked out a website where German taxi drivers reported their experiences with the current C5 and they're all reporting positive experiences with the car. And these are people who have driven these cars upwards of 200,000 km. Keep in mind that as a taxi there is a lot of abuse and wear and tear on the car.

So, what does this tell me? It's a reliable car with few faults. If there are problems they can be fixed in a few minutes/hours. Big deal. There's a Citroen dealership near me anyway.

Look at JD Power 2012 results:



Shows you how far off Citroen are from competing with Toyota, VW Group and co.  If C5s are so good as taxis, why are they still so uncommon compared to Toyota Avensises, VW Passats and Skoda Superbs?  100,000 km is 62,000, that's within or just out of warranty.  I think most owners would expect realiblity within that mileage!

As you put it, a few faults, is just not good enough anymore.  Buyers expect an almost perfect experience, as they know they can get that with the leading products.  Dealership quality is a big part of this too.  Citroen dealers are much worse than other marques according to industry reports and my own anecdotal experience.

[Payman]

What is Glam in this context?

Pearl necklace.

[cawimmer430]

Look at JD Power 2012 results:



Shows you how far off Citroen are from competing with Toyota, VW Group and co.  If C5s are so good as taxis, why are they still so uncommon compared to Toyota Avensises, VW Passats and Skoda Superbs?  100,000 km is 62,000, that's within or just out of warranty.  I think most owners would expect realiblity within that mileage!

As you put it, a few faults, is just not good enough anymore.  Buyers expect an almost perfect experience, as they know they can get that with the leading products.  Dealership quality is a big part of this too.  Citroen dealers are much worse than other marques according to industry reports and my own anecdotal experience.

I don't listen to JD Powers. These guys are never specific as to what exactly the severity of the problems are.

A Toyota Corolla can have had its transmission replaced twice and a Citroen C5 could have broken its cup holders seven times - according to JD Power the Toyota Corolla is more "reliable" because of "two problems" as opposed to the "seven problems" in the Citroen.

I still want a Citroen C5 Tourer (or a Skoda Superb Combi) and I trust the feedback that owners give on these cars. To me the very fact that taxi drivers are happy with the C5 is evidence enough that these cars are well-made and reliable enough. Notice I said that many taxi drivers reporting on their C5s have mileages above 200,000 km (125,000 miles) and have reported none to few small problems with their cars. Sounds completely reasonable to me.

Honestly, all modern cars are very reliable. If I didn't need the huge flat trunk space that a C5 Tourer or Superb Combi offers an Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon would also have been an enticing choice.

[Raza]

Pearl necklace.

I was going to say that I'd cover the bed in glitter, but that's a much better idea.

[Raza]

Look at JD Power 2012 results:



Shows you how far off Citroen are from competing with Toyota, VW Group and co.  If C5s are so good as taxis, why are they still so uncommon compared to Toyota Avensises, VW Passats and Skoda Superbs?  100,000 km is 62,000, that's within or just out of warranty.  I think most owners would expect realiblity within that mileage!

As you put it, a few faults, is just not good enough anymore.  Buyers expect an almost perfect experience, as they know they can get that with the leading products.  Dealership quality is a big part of this too.  Citroen dealers are much worse than other marques according to industry reports and my own anecdotal experience.

Jaguar and Mercedes in the top 5?

[sportyaccordy]

Jaguar and Mercedes in the top 5?

I get the feeling folks who drop 60, 80, 100 large might be hesitant to complain about problems, and admit they wasted all that money. Also might be so used to luxury cars being problematic, they only report when shit truly goes haywire.

I still want a Citroen C5 Tourer (or a Skoda Superb Combi) and I trust the feedback that owners give on these cars. To me the very fact that taxi drivers are happy with the C5 is evidence enough that these cars are well-made and reliable enough.

It seems to me like they are happier with the Toyotas though...

[TurboDan]

Look at JD Power 2012 results:

What this chart says to me: Modern cars are fucking reliable. The difference between the "best" and "worst" is 11 percent.

[AltinD]

I get the feeling folks who drop 60, 80, 100 large might be hesitant to complain about problems, and admit they wasted all that money. Also might be so used to luxury cars being problematic, they only report when shit truly goes haywire.

[AltinD]

What sporty means, is that crappy car owners don't give a shit about small things, they don't even understand they've gone wrong .... not to mention a crappy car is not revolutionary and old in tech, so there's less to go wrong if there's not much to begin with.

[sportyaccordy]

What sporty means, is that crappy car owners don't give a shit about small things, they don't even understand they've gone wrong .... not to mention a crappy car is not revolutionary and old in tech, so there's less to go wrong if there's not much to begin with.

Do yourself a favor and dont respond to my posts. Youre embarrassing yourself.

[cawimmer430]

It seems to me like they are happier with the Toyotas though...

If I was a Toyota Avensis owner, I'd be happy with the reliability but unhappy with the bland and boring styling (and probably the bland way it drives to). I do care about styling. I like to drive something nice and emotional (ok, that's not the case with the 118i but I can dream about a new car!).


Citroen C5 Tourer, Skoda Superb Combi, Peugeot 508 Break, Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon - they all look good.

Toyota Avensis... 

[sportyaccordy]

A car that looks good but is always in the shop.... doesnt sound appealing to me.

And I know you know 1 person with each car who doesn't complain bitterly about them.... but Citroens and Alfas are problematic, period.

[cawimmer430]

A car that looks good but is always in the shop.... doesnt sound appealing to me.

Always in the shop? Buddy, the '70s are long over. All brands have made major quality strides in the last two decades because consumers demand it. If a car company sold poor quality and unreliable cars in Europe they'd be laughed off the market just like in the US.

Fact is, a modern-day car is very reliable. Car A at the top of the list has 1.5 problems a year. Car Z at the bottom has 2.5 problems a year. Oh my god, Car Z is so unreliable!!! <--- Sarcasm

And I know you know 1 person with each car who doesn't complain bitterly about them.... but Citroens and Alfas are problematic, period.

And you know this because they're sold in the US and Consumer Reports evaluates them?

I have friends with Alfa Romeos, Renaults, Citroens etc. and they're very happy with their cars. Always in the shop? How about never - unless it's for schedule maintenance or some minor problem. Keep in mind that a cars condition is also dependent on how owners maintain them. And here with organizations like the T?V around, people maintain their cars much better I would think. And basic maintenance means changing the oil when the manufacturer recommends it, not when you feel like it. Checking tire pressure every two weeks to ensure your tires aren't unevenly used up. Skipping out on stuff like this is the best way to ruin your car in the long-term.

I'm sure Colin will tell you all about his Alfa Romeo (he had two, I believe) experience and how positive it was.

So in the end, I don't care if a Citroen C5 Tourer or Alfa Romeo 159 has a few more issues than a Toyota Avensis over the years. Those cars offer so much more that makes the ownership experience worthwhile and exciting than that dreadfully bland Toyota Avensis.

[nickdrinkwater]

I don't listen to JD Powers. These guys are never specific as to what exactly the severity of the problems are.

A Toyota Corolla can have had its transmission replaced twice and a Citroen C5 could have broken its cup holders seven times - according to JD Power the Toyota Corolla is more "reliable" because of "two problems" as opposed to the "seven problems" in the Citroen.

I still want a Citroen C5 Tourer (or a Skoda Superb Combi) and I trust the feedback that owners give on these cars. To me the very fact that taxi drivers are happy with the C5 is evidence enough that these cars are well-made and reliable enough. Notice I said that many taxi drivers reporting on their C5s have mileages above 200,000 km (125,000 miles) and have reported none to few small problems with their cars. Sounds completely reasonable to me.

Honestly, all modern cars are very reliable. If I didn't need the huge flat trunk space that a C5 Tourer or Superb Combi offers an Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon would also have been an enticing choice.

Sorry wimmer but that makes no sense whatsoever.  You can criticise the methodoloy of these surverys true, but then you go and draw conclusions based on a what a few taxi drivers say?  Yeah, that's a much more reflective sample.

You're right that moderns are more reliable than their predecessors, but as cars get more reliable, expecations grow too.  A few years ago I'm sure getting a car to 125,000 miles would be pretty impressive, but anything less than a few niggles up to those kind of mileages on a new car is quite rightly what we demand.

I think this comes down to people's priorities when making the buying decision, which is why we disagree on this.  But a lot of customers are avoiding PSA:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/jul/12/peugeot-citroen-cuts-jobs-close-factory-france

[nickdrinkwater]

Jaguar and Mercedes in the top 5?

Both marques have improved quality massively since the early to mid 2000s which I guess explains their better showings here

The survey AFAIK looks at models that have been owned for 3 years, and I think MBs from 2009 on have been pretty reliable?  (Compared to the early 2000s and the terrible quality problems MB had) .  Likewise the Jag XF and the late model XJs, I think these are meant to be a big improvement vs the old S-TYPE?

[sportyaccordy]

Always in the shop? Buddy, the '70s are long over. All brands have made major quality strides in the last two decades because consumers demand it. If a car company sold poor quality and unreliable cars in Europe they'd be laughed off the market just like in the US.

Fact is, a modern-day car is very reliable. Car A at the top of the list has 1.5 problems a year. Car Z at the bottom has 2.5 problems a year. Oh my god, Car Z is so unreliable!!! <--- Sarcasm



And you know this because they're sold in the US and Consumer Reports evaluates them?

I have friends with Alfa Romeos, Renaults, Citroens etc. and they're very happy with their cars. Always in the shop? How about never - unless it's for schedule maintenance or some minor problem. Keep in mind that a cars condition is also dependent on how owners maintain them. And here with organizations like the T?V around, people maintain their cars much better I would think. And basic maintenance means changing the oil when the manufacturer recommends it, not when you feel like it. Checking tire pressure every two weeks to ensure your tires aren't unevenly used up. Skipping out on stuff like this is the best way to ruin your car in the long-term.

I'm sure Colin will tell you all about his Alfa Romeo (he had two, I believe) experience and how positive it was.

So in the end, I don't care if a Citroen C5 Tourer or Alfa Romeo 159 has a few more issues than a Toyota Avensis over the years. Those cars offer so much more that makes the ownership experience worthwhile and exciting than that dreadfully bland Toyota Avensis.

Country/continent wide surveys >>>>>>>>>> "what your friends say".

The bottom line is, Citroens + Alfas are not among the most reliable marques. I am not saying you shouldn't buy them, but like nick said its stupid to bitch about publications that specialize in unbiased reliability surveys, and then offer up statistically insignificant anecdotes proving them wrong. In other words, if you dont like CR, the only way to prove them wrong is by

- working in a shop in which you see a wide range of cars

or

- starting your own CR and getting different data

Saying Alfas are reliable cause you know one guy who owns one and doesn't complain about it doesnt mean shit, frankly. But again nobody is telling you what to do or buy, so I dont know why you are taking such offense.

And I have seen Euro publications on these cars reliability. The buyer's guide on the Alfa GTAs say it all. There isn't one component in any of those cars that isn't potentially problematic

[cawimmer430]

I know that the experiences of a few of my friends with these cars don't mean anything in the big picture, but it also tells me that these cars are more or less reliable and not as unreliable as people claim they are. Fact is, all brands have improved their quality because consumers nowadays are more affected by reliability issues. The competition is tough. Brands have to improve their quality because they'll loose customers to other brands in the long run.

Seriously, I consider the experiences taxi drivers had with the C5 to be very important. Taxi duty means the car is running virtually all day, is constantly in stop-and-go-traffic, is hit by other cars or taxis or buses in daily city action. According to some sources it's not uncommon for the average German taxi to hit up 80,000-100,000 km within a single year. Reliability and durability here are of essence here. The C5 has performed well in these category overall. There might be some minor issues that can be quickly fixed and never pop up again. The C5 as a taxi will literally see more abuse and wear and tear in one to two years than in my ownership of say ten years. So there you have it. To me this is proof enough that the C5 is a quality car if it can hold up so well.

I still lust after a Citroen C5 Tourer and will always take it over a Toyota Avensis Wagon. I like the car, I trust the reports and experiences people have with them and it's perfect for my needs. Reliability is important, but so is styling to me. Both the Avensis and C5 are quality cars to me. Except the C5 is also stylish and appeals to me, the Avensis does not.

[sportyaccordy]

I still lust after a Citroen C5 Tourer and will always take it over a Toyota Avensis Wagon. I like the car, I trust the reports and experiences people have with them and it's perfect for my needs. Reliability is important, but so is styling to me. Both the Avensis and C5 are quality cars to me. Except the C5 is also stylish and appeals to me, the Avensis does not.

Thats all the reason you need to buy it. Just don't bash people, cars, and magazines that value reliability over style.

[AltinD]

Do yourself a favor and dont respond to my posts. Youre embarrassing yourself.

Are you saying some plastic rattles in a Mercedes S-class would trouble the owner less then the same thing in a (let say) Camry? Pleeeeeeeaaaaase..........

If one is picky, attentive to details and a good observer by nature, he/she certainly ain't gone drive a vanilla car .... for example my car cuts off the A/C compressor on full acceleration, cause it percives it to be an emergency situation, therefore delivering the most of the engine power to the wheels, takes precedence over anything else. Have i considered that as a problem and reported, although a factory design? Yes. Have the Camry something like that? I pretty much doubt so.

[sportyaccordy]

Are you saying some plastic rattles in a Mercedes S-class would trouble the owner less then the same thing in a (let say) Camry? Pleeeeeeeaaaaase..........

If one is picky, attentive to details and a good observer by nature, he/she certainly ain't gone drive a vanilla car .... for example my car cuts off the A/C compressor on full acceleration, cause it percives it to be an emergency situation, therefore delivering the most of the engine power to the wheels, takes precedence over anything else. Have i considered that as a problem and reported, although a factory design? Yes. Have the Camry something like that? I pretty much doubt so.

Like I said, embarrassing yourself.

Ask Raza about his parents' experience with MB. IIRC they bought two lemons and a third Benz. Logic would dictate, they did not complain... in fact, they went back for thirds.

[Raza]

Like I said, embarrassing yourself.

Ask Raza about his parents' experience with MB. IIRC they bought two lemons and a third Benz. Logic would dictate, they did not complain... in fact, they went back for thirds.

Well, to be fair, we've had like a dozen Benzes and only two of the last four have been unreliable when they got to higher miles, the 2002 E320 being the worst offender, followed by the S320 (1996, different engine), which was perfectly reliable until the day the engine blew up.  But we did go report any minor problem, especially within warranty.  At least we did when I was around and of driving age.