Toyotaness

Started by 2o6, July 13, 2012, 02:46:28 PM

Soup DeVille

Quote from: 2o6 on July 14, 2012, 07:14:02 AM

The unit I bought was only $75.

Well, that makes a lot more sense.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Soup DeVille

Quote from: Eye of the Tiger on July 15, 2012, 09:50:07 AM
A mechanically operated diesel engine is the only thing that will run once the terrorists start using EMP
bombs.

You have to get a military issued fuel pump and injector.

But, the chance of a terrorist organiozation being able to build a large deffect area EMP are zero to none: basically if they could, they'd also be at the point where they were building thier own fusion bombs anyways.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Madman

Quote from: MX793 on July 15, 2012, 06:13:43 PM
They're not supposed to look different.  Scion doesn't exist outside of North America, so the top one is the one Toyota sells in Europe and Japan (and probably other places), and the bottom one is the one Toyota sells in America as a Scion.  No different than a Vauxhall Astra sold in the UK and an Opel Astra sold in the mainland.


Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.

Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either.  It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.



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Current cars: 2015 Ford Escape SE, 2011 MINI Cooper

Formerly owned cars: 2010 Mazda 5 Sport, 2008 Audi A4 2.0T S-Line Sedan, 2003 Volkswagen Passat GL 1.8T wagon, 1998 Ford Escort SE sedan, 2001 Cadillac Catera, 2000 Volkswagen Golf GLS 2.0 5-Door, 1997 Honda Odyssey LX, 1991 Volvo 240 sedan, 1990 Volvo 740 Turbo sedan, 1987 Volvo 240 DL sedan, 1990 Peugeot 405 DL Sportswagon, 1985 Peugeot 505 Turbo sedan, 1985 Merkur XR4Ti, 1983 Renault R9 Alliance DL sedan, 1979 Chevrolet Caprice Classic wagon, 1975 Volkswagen Transporter, 1980 Fiat X-1/9 Bertone, 1979 Volkswagen Rabbit C 3-Door hatch, 1976 Ford Pinto V6 coupe, 1952 Chevrolet Styleline Deluxe sedan

"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ~ Isaac Asimov

"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses." - Johannes Kepler

"One of the most cowardly things ordinary people do is to shut their eyes to facts." - C.S. Lewis

Raza

Quote from: Xer0 on July 15, 2012, 12:24:32 PM


<- wow, forgot how ugly that thing was

And of course one of the greatest and best performing vehicle of all time



They've done a few great ones, true.  But as a whole, they excel at appealing to the fattest part of the bell curve, which is not great.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


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Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

2o6

...like Volkswagen doesn't?

TurboDan

#95
Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 09:15:23 PM
...like Volkswagen doesn't?

Not until like one model year ago, at least...

At the end of the day, though, even the watered down Passat and Jetta are more "driver's cars" than the Camry and Corolla. It's a shame that "Toyotaness" has rubbed off on them to the point where we don't even get the real Passat anymore. I loved my B5.5, but I don't think I'd buy the current one.

2o6

Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".

sportyaccordy

Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.

Eye of the Tiger

Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 15, 2012, 10:02:34 PM
Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.

The general public sucks, and you know it.
2024 Mitsubishi Mirage ES

TurboDan

Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 10:00:41 PM
Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".

Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

Madman

Quote from: TurboDan on July 15, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.


Sad but true.  Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible.  You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses.  The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.
Current cars: 2015 Ford Escape SE, 2011 MINI Cooper

Formerly owned cars: 2010 Mazda 5 Sport, 2008 Audi A4 2.0T S-Line Sedan, 2003 Volkswagen Passat GL 1.8T wagon, 1998 Ford Escort SE sedan, 2001 Cadillac Catera, 2000 Volkswagen Golf GLS 2.0 5-Door, 1997 Honda Odyssey LX, 1991 Volvo 240 sedan, 1990 Volvo 740 Turbo sedan, 1987 Volvo 240 DL sedan, 1990 Peugeot 405 DL Sportswagon, 1985 Peugeot 505 Turbo sedan, 1985 Merkur XR4Ti, 1983 Renault R9 Alliance DL sedan, 1979 Chevrolet Caprice Classic wagon, 1975 Volkswagen Transporter, 1980 Fiat X-1/9 Bertone, 1979 Volkswagen Rabbit C 3-Door hatch, 1976 Ford Pinto V6 coupe, 1952 Chevrolet Styleline Deluxe sedan

"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom." ~ Isaac Asimov

"I much prefer the sharpest criticism of a single intelligent man to the thoughtless approval of the masses." - Johannes Kepler

"One of the most cowardly things ordinary people do is to shut their eyes to facts." - C.S. Lewis

sportyaccordy

Quote from: TurboDan on July 15, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 12:05:49 AM

Sad but true.  Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible.  You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses.  The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.


Are you guys on some sort of automotive judgment council? How is your definition of "best" any better than that of the dude driving a Camry, especially FOR that dude? "Oh you want a Camry, you must not know what you want :rolleyes:" Get over yourself guys.

Even w/Toyota's late 90s cost cutting they are still ahead of the game for what the avg person wants. People say companies like Hyundai & Ford have caught up.... Hyundai, maybe, but Ford botched their first crop of DSGs, for example. We don't know the long term reliability of either of their new direct injection systems. For someone who just wants a device to get them from point A to B with minimum fuss, Toyota + Honda make good products. Every car isn't meant to be thrilling and everyone doesn't want a car that thrills. And in any case, if you want excitement there are plenty of choices. Get over it

Onslaught

Most of the time enthusiasts come off as judgmental assholes. And car guys can be on the top of that list. Nothing wrong with Toyota for 99% of the people in the world.

I'm just a guilty of this too however.

sportyaccordy

I think there are some cases where its warranted (i.e. Cougs asserting a Camry V6 should be the default enthusiast's choice.... actually that is exactly what folks are doing here, but in reverse). But Toyotas are not bad cars. Something not being "fun to drive" does not make it a bad car. Maybe a bad car for us, but not a bad car period.

MrH

Quote from: Madman on July 15, 2012, 06:21:02 PM

Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.

Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either.  It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.



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It's a relatively low volume, niche vehicle that was a joint development?  What were you expecting? :confused:
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Lebowski

Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 12:05:49 AM

Sad but true.  Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible.  You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses.  The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.



For what the average (non enthusiast) wants, they do make the absolute best cars.

Raza

Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 09:15:23 PM
...like Volkswagen doesn't?

Irrelevant to the discussion and irrelevant to what I said. 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: 2o6 on July 15, 2012, 10:00:41 PM
Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".

Still irrelevant.  Are you just arguing over Volkswagen because I like Volkswagen or are you getting to a point germane to the discussion any time soon?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 15, 2012, 10:02:34 PM
Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.

By the very fact that we're on a car forum discussing this means we're not part of the general public, as it were.  The argument has never been "Toyota makes crap cars", it's "Toyota doesn't make cars for enthusiasts", which is, for the most part, quite true.  I understand the sentiment, but I don't get why people are confused by it. 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

Raza

Quote from: TurboDan on July 15, 2012, 11:58:28 PM
Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

It's how business is done.  You have to sell products.  I'm not upset at manufacturers making boring cars--it's perfect if they do that to sell the rest of us fun ones.  It seems like Toyota is getting their balls back with the FRS.  Hopefully it doesn't suffer the same ignominious fate as the MR2 Spyder did. 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

GoCougs

So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?


GoCougs

Anyone who hates an automaker wholesale is an idiot. If you're gonna do it, do it right (have material basis for it, which does NOT include new-wave hyperbole such as "steering feel" and cup holder size); road noise (Honda), reliability (Germans), UAW (Detroit), etc.

sportyaccordy

Quote from: Raza  on July 16, 2012, 11:09:54 AM
By the very fact that we're on a car forum discussing this means we're not part of the general public, as it were.  The argument has never been "Toyota makes crap cars", it's "Toyota doesn't make cars for enthusiasts", which is, for the most part, quite true.  I understand the sentiment, but I don't get why people are confused by it. 

I'm not confused by that, I'm confused by cars that aren't catered to enthusiasts being written off as

Quote from: Madman on July 16, 2012, 12:05:49 AMmediocre crap

not just for enthusiasts, but in general. Sure the Corolla/Camry are not thrilling, but are they crap? Thats a bit hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? People seem to have a problem reconciling the fact that their tastes aren't the final word.

Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 11:58:46 AM
So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?


If acceleration/$$$ is the only measure of a car's worth, why did you get a G37x? (Talking all used here) The regular G37 is faster and cheaper. A 370Z is faster and cheaper than that. A WRX STi is cheaper than that. An old Mustang with a supercharger, cheaper than all this shit. My bike is cheaper + faster (by a landslide). So why the G37x? Seems at odds with your philosophy.

Also, its more like the $27K Camry, vs the $37K 328i... not sure what the Camry is comparable with; not only is the 328i faster to the big metrics by nearly a second, it also betters the Camry in both EPA fuel mileage cycles by 2-3 MPG :huh:

GoCougs

Quote from: sportyaccordy on July 16, 2012, 12:15:40 PM
If acceleration/$$$ is the only measure of a car's worth, why did you get a G37x? (Talking all used here) The regular G37 is faster and cheaper. A 370Z is faster and cheaper than that. A WRX STi is cheaper than that. An old Mustang with a supercharger, cheaper than all this shit. My bike is cheaper + faster (by a landslide). So why the G37x? Seems at odds with your philosophy.

Also, its more like the $27K Camry, vs the $37K 328i... not sure what the Camry is comparable with; not only is the 328i faster to the big metrics by nearly a second, it also betters the Camry in both EPA fuel mileage cycles by 2-3 MPG :huh:

Ooh, strawmanism on "only measure;" thus, logic forbids comment.

And I almost hate to do this. Also, don't brag about MPG; we've been here before (and not because it often sets one up for a loss). Presented and normalized by way of both being C&D tests (= same (and detailed) metrics):

2012 Toyota Camry SE V6
0-60: 5.8 sec
0-100: 14.1 sec
1/4 mile: 14.3 sec @ 101 mph
5-60:  6.1 sec
30-50:  3.4 sec
50-70:  3.7 sec
Skidpad:  .83g
70-0: 173 ft
Test MPG: 25 MPG

2012 BMW 328i:
0-60: 5.6 sec
0-100: 14.7 sec
1/4 mile: 14.2 sec @ 98 mph
5-60:  6.5 sec
30-50:  3.5 sec
50-70:  3.9 sec
Skidpad:  .87g
70-0: 191 ft
Test MPG:  21 mpg

2o6

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=27752.msg1749745#msg1749745 date=1342458410
Still irrelevant.  Are you just arguing over Volkswagen because I like Volkswagen or are you getting to a point germane to the discussion any time soon?

They both cater to very large markets with very varying clientele. There is nothing wrong with that.

Raza

Quote from: GoCougs on July 16, 2012, 11:59:42 AM
Anyone who hates an automaker wholesale is an idiot. If you're gonna do it, do it right (have material basis for it, which does NOT include new-wave hyperbole such as "steering feel" and cup holder size); road noise (Honda), reliability (Germans), UAW (Detroit), etc.

Seriously LOL at steering feel being hyperbolic. 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
If you can read this, you're too close


2006 BMW Z4 3.0i
http://accelerationtherapy.squarespace.com/   @accelerationdoc
Quote from: the Teuton on October 05, 2009, 03:53:18 PMIt's impossible to argue with Raza. He wins. Period. End of discussion.

280Z Turbo

Quote from: Madman on July 15, 2012, 06:08:18 PM

Wow, talk about a lazy rebadge job.  They could at least try to make them look A LITTLE BIT different!!!!  :rage:


The fact that they look different at all is a huge failure.

sportyaccordy

Quote from: Raza  link=topic=27752.msg1749808#msg1749808 date=1342467799
Seriously LOL at steering feel being hyperbolic.  
You are talking about a guy who derives a car's driving enjoyment solely to magazine straight line performance times.

And lol @ cherry picking the worst times possible. 3 is good for high 13s-very low 14s, period; Camry @ 14.2 is easily its best time yet and it generally does mid to high 14s. Plus for the enthusiast many options are available for the 3 owner to make their car faster for cheap (a 40HP reflash = $500), it comes in stickshift, yadda yadda. The argument that the Camry is a logical choice for an enthusiast is bogus... again, if this were true, why didn't you buy one?

SVT666

Stop feeding you troll you idiot.  IIRC, you're one of the ones that tells me that.  He does the exact same cherry picking of numbers with the Mustang....but I digress.

AltinD

So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?

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