Toyotaness

[Soup DeVille]

The unit I bought was only $75.

Well, that makes a lot more sense.

[Soup DeVille]

A mechanically operated diesel engine is the only thing that will run once the terrorists start using EMP
bombs.

You have to get a military issued fuel pump and injector.

But, the chance of a terrorist organiozation being able to build a large deffect area EMP are zero to none: basically if they could, they'd also be at the point where they were building thier own fusion bombs anyways.

[Madman]

They're not supposed to look different.  Scion doesn't exist outside of North America, so the top one is the one Toyota sells in Europe and Japan (and probably other places), and the bottom one is the one Toyota sells in America as a Scion.  No different than a Vauxhall Astra sold in the UK and an Opel Astra sold in the mainland.

Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.

Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either.  It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.



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[Raza]

<- wow, forgot how ugly that thing was

And of course one of the greatest and best performing vehicle of all time

They've done a few great ones, true.  But as a whole, they excel at appealing to the fattest part of the bell curve, which is not great.

[2o6]

...like Volkswagen doesn't?

[TurboDan]

...like Volkswagen doesn't?

Not until like one model year ago, at least...

At the end of the day, though, even the watered down Passat and Jetta are more "driver's cars" than the Camry and Corolla. It's a shame that "Toyotaness" has rubbed off on them to the point where we don't even get the real Passat anymore. I loved my B5.5, but I don't think I'd buy the current one.

[2o6]

Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".

[sportyaccordy]

Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.

The general public sucks, and you know it.

[TurboDan]

Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".

Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

[Madman]

Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

Sad but true.  Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible.  You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses.  The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.

[sportyaccordy]

Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

Sad but true.  Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible.  You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses.  The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.

Are you guys on some sort of automotive judgment council? How is your definition of "best" any better than that of the dude driving a Camry, especially FOR that dude? "Oh you want a Camry, you must not know what you want " Get over yourself guys.

Even w/Toyota's late 90s cost cutting they are still ahead of the game for what the avg person wants. People say companies like Hyundai & Ford have caught up.... Hyundai, maybe, but Ford botched their first crop of DSGs, for example. We don't know the long term reliability of either of their new direct injection systems. For someone who just wants a device to get them from point A to B with minimum fuss, Toyota + Honda make good products. Every car isn't meant to be thrilling and everyone doesn't want a car that thrills. And in any case, if you want excitement there are plenty of choices. Get over it

[Onslaught]

Most of the time enthusiasts come off as judgmental assholes. And car guys can be on the top of that list. Nothing wrong with Toyota for 99% of the people in the world.

I'm just a guilty of this too however.

[sportyaccordy]

I think there are some cases where its warranted (i.e. Cougs asserting a Camry V6 should be the default enthusiast's choice.... actually that is exactly what folks are doing here, but in reverse). But Toyotas are not bad cars. Something not being "fun to drive" does not make it a bad car. Maybe a bad car for us, but not a bad car period.

[MrH]

Oh, I thought one was the Subaru.

Then again, the Subie doesn't look any different, either.  It has a slightly different air intake, but that's all.



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It's a relatively low volume, niche vehicle that was a joint development?  What were you expecting?

[Lebowski]

Sad but true.  Fact is you don't get to be number one by making the very best cars humanly possible.  You get to be number one by flogging mediocre crap to the masses.  The Toyotafication of Volkswagen is concrete proof of this.

For what the average (non enthusiast) wants, they do make the absolute best cars.

[Raza]

...like Volkswagen doesn't?

Irrelevant to the discussion and irrelevant to what I said. 

[Raza]

Who cares? They still are IIRC the number 3 automaker in the world....they don't get there by making a product that doesn't cater to a similar part of the "bell curve".

Still irrelevant.  Are you just arguing over Volkswagen because I like Volkswagen or are you getting to a point germane to the discussion any time soon?

[Raza]

Every car isnt meant to be a driver's car. Making a Camry a drivers car for example would compromise its purpose and add cost. I am really confused by this anti-Toyota sentiment, given what the general public wants in their cars.

By the very fact that we're on a car forum discussing this means we're not part of the general public, as it were.  The argument has never been "Toyota makes crap cars", it's "Toyota doesn't make cars for enthusiasts", which is, for the most part, quite true.  I understand the sentiment, but I don't get why people are confused by it. 

[Raza]

Unfortunately, catering to the bell curve will probably earn them the title of number 1 automaker in a few years.

It's how business is done.  You have to sell products.  I'm not upset at manufacturers making boring cars--it's perfect if they do that to sell the rest of us fun ones.  It seems like Toyota is getting their balls back with the FRS.  Hopefully it doesn't suffer the same ignominious fate as the MR2 Spyder did. 

[GoCougs]

So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?

[GoCougs]

Anyone who hates an automaker wholesale is an idiot. If you're gonna do it, do it right (have material basis for it, which does NOT include new-wave hyperbole such as "steering feel" and cup holder size); road noise (Honda), reliability (Germans), UAW (Detroit), etc.

[sportyaccordy]

By the very fact that we're on a car forum discussing this means we're not part of the general public, as it were.  The argument has never been "Toyota makes crap cars", it's "Toyota doesn't make cars for enthusiasts", which is, for the most part, quite true.  I understand the sentiment, but I don't get why people are confused by it. 

I'm not confused by that, I'm confused by cars that aren't catered to enthusiasts being written off as

mediocre crap

not just for enthusiasts, but in general. Sure the Corolla/Camry are not thrilling, but are they crap? Thats a bit hyperbolic, wouldn't you say? People seem to have a problem reconciling the fact that their tastes aren't the final word.

So would now be a good time to trot out $25k Camry V6 vs. $50k C300/A4/328i "performance" sedan acceleration specs?

If acceleration/$$$ is the only measure of a car's worth, why did you get a G37x? (Talking all used here) The regular G37 is faster and cheaper. A 370Z is faster and cheaper than that. A WRX STi is cheaper than that. An old Mustang with a supercharger, cheaper than all this shit. My bike is cheaper + faster (by a landslide). So why the G37x? Seems at odds with your philosophy.

Also, its more like the $27K Camry, vs the $37K 328i... not sure what the Camry is comparable with; not only is the 328i faster to the big metrics by nearly a second, it also betters the Camry in both EPA fuel mileage cycles by 2-3 MPG

[GoCougs]

If acceleration/$$$ is the only measure of a car's worth, why did you get a G37x? (Talking all used here) The regular G37 is faster and cheaper. A 370Z is faster and cheaper than that. A WRX STi is cheaper than that. An old Mustang with a supercharger, cheaper than all this shit. My bike is cheaper + faster (by a landslide). So why the G37x? Seems at odds with your philosophy.

Also, its more like the $27K Camry, vs the $37K 328i... not sure what the Camry is comparable with; not only is the 328i faster to the big metrics by nearly a second, it also betters the Camry in both EPA fuel mileage cycles by 2-3 MPG

Ooh, strawmanism on "only measure;" thus, logic forbids comment.

And I almost hate to do this. Also, don't brag about MPG; we've been here before (and not because it often sets one up for a loss). Presented and normalized by way of both being C&D tests (= same (and detailed) metrics):

2012 Toyota Camry SE V6
0-60: 5.8 sec
0-100: 14.1 sec
1/4 mile: 14.3 sec @ 101 mph
5-60:  6.1 sec
30-50:  3.4 sec
50-70:  3.7 sec
Skidpad:  .83g
70-0: 173 ft
Test MPG: 25 MPG

2012 BMW 328i:
0-60: 5.6 sec
0-100: 14.7 sec
1/4 mile: 14.2 sec @ 98 mph
5-60:  6.5 sec
30-50:  3.5 sec
50-70:  3.9 sec
Skidpad:  .87g
70-0: 191 ft
Test MPG:  21 mpg

[2o6]

Still irrelevant.  Are you just arguing over Volkswagen because I like Volkswagen or are you getting to a point germane to the discussion any time soon?

They both cater to very large markets with very varying clientele. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Raza]

Anyone who hates an automaker wholesale is an idiot. If you're gonna do it, do it right (have material basis for it, which does NOT include new-wave hyperbole such as "steering feel" and cup holder size); road noise (Honda), reliability (Germans), UAW (Detroit), etc.

Seriously LOL at steering feel being hyperbolic. 

[280Z Turbo]

Wow, talk about a lazy rebadge job.  They could at least try to make them look A LITTLE BIT different!!!! 

The fact that they look different at all is a huge failure.

[sportyaccordy]

Seriously LOL at steering feel being hyperbolic.  

You are talking about a guy who derives a car's driving enjoyment solely to magazine straight line performance times.

And lol @ cherry picking the worst times possible. 3 is good for high 13s-very low 14s, period; Camry @ 14.2 is easily its best time yet and it generally does mid to high 14s. Plus for the enthusiast many options are available for the 3 owner to make their car faster for cheap (a 40HP reflash = $500), it comes in stickshift, yadda yadda. The argument that the Camry is a logical choice for an enthusiast is bogus... again, if this were true, why didn't you buy one?

[SVT666]

Stop feeding you troll you idiot.  IIRC, you're one of the ones that tells me that.  He does the exact same cherry picking of numbers with the Mustang....but I digress.

[AltinD]

So let me get that straight, the Toyota FT86 is not sold in USA, only the Scion?