Are Hondas worth it?

[sportyaccordy]

Why aren't they a fit for luxury cars?  Ever been in a new 300C?  Very quiet and refined.  You would never know it was a pushrod engine.

True true.

[SVT666]

True true.

Hell, it's more refined than the 3.7L V6 in my Infiniti.

[GoCougs]

No.

An engine is judged on its own performance, not by the competition's offerings.

Yes; and pooprod engines fall short; V8, V6, I4, or whatever. The point being, other manufacturers who compete in markets vastly more competitive than full-size trucks, dumped pooprods long ago. If GM and Dodge didn't make a boatload of trucks, they'd have dumped pooprod engines too, just as they did with pooprod V6s and I4s (since those engines serve vastly more competitive markets).

[sportyaccordy]

Yes; and pooprod engines fall short; V8, V6, I4, or whatever. The point being, other manufacturers who compete in markets vastly more competitive than full-size trucks, dumped pooprods long ago. If GM and Dodge didn't make a boatload of trucks, they'd have dumped pooprod engines too, just as they did with pooprod V6s and I4s (since those engines serve vastly more competitive markets).

They dont fall short for the millions of folks who buy 300Cs, Camaros, Challengers, and Corvettes over their OHC competitors year after year after year.

Hell, GM tried an OHC V8, twice, and both times they failed. People don't buy American V8s for tech & NVH, they buy them for sound, performance and value... you know, cheap American FUN. Have you ever heard of "fun"?

[Vinsanity]

They dont fall short for the millions of folks who buy 300Cs, Camaros, Challengers, and Corvettes over their OHC competitors year after year after year.

Hell, GM tried an OHC V8, twice, and both times they failed. People don't buy American V8s for tech & NVH, they buy them for sound, performance and value... you know, cheap American FUN. Have you ever heard of "fun"?

I wouldn't exactly call the Northstar a failure. A technological dead-end like the 90's ZR1, sure, but the thing had nearly a 20-year run. The Nissan VQ has yet to outlive it.

It is funny, though, to read Cougs rant about pooprods, then turn around and rave about Camaros beating up on Mustangs, etc.

[SVT666]

I wouldn't exactly call the Northstar a failure. A technological dead-end like the 90's ZR1, sure, but the thing had nearly a 20-year run. The Nissan VQ has yet to outlive it.

It is funny, though, to read Cougs rant about pooprods, then turn around and rave about Camaros beating up on Mustangs, etc.

He's full of contradictions.

[hotrodalex]

Yes; and pooprod engines fall short; V8, V6, I4, or whatever. The point being, other manufacturers who compete in markets vastly more competitive than full-size trucks, dumped pooprods long ago. If GM and Dodge didn't make a boatload of trucks, they'd have dumped pooprod engines too, just as they did with pooprod V6s and I4s (since those engines serve vastly more competitive markets).

So which engines are better than the LS/HEMI engines? Judging on power, reliability, size/weight, cost, etc.

[TurboDan]

On the used car market, hondas rule. 

If you're the seller, at least. I feel Hondas are a pretty good value new, especially the Accord. But the used prices on them are outrageous, in my opinion. I think there are much, much better used deals than what Honda offers. I've seen Accords priced almost as much as 3ers of similar year/mileage.

Buying a used Civic over a used Mazda3, for example, is just idiotic.

[TurboDan]

Yes; and pooprod engines fall short; V8, V6, I4, or whatever. The point being, other manufacturers who compete in markets vastly more competitive than full-size trucks, dumped pooprods long ago. If GM and Dodge didn't make a boatload of trucks, they'd have dumped pooprod engines too, just as they did with pooprod V6s and I4s (since those engines serve vastly more competitive markets).

Pushrods were regulated out of favor with European displacement taxes. They have a size advantage over OHC engines and would be arguably more useful in smaller applications.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

So which engines are better than the LS/HEMI engines? Judging on power, reliability, size/weight, cost, etc.

[veeman]

If you're the seller, at least. I feel Hondas are a pretty good value new, especially the Accord. But the used prices on them are outrageous, in my opinion. I think there are much, much better used deals than what Honda offers. I've seen Accords priced almost as much as 3ers of similar year/mileage.

Buying a used Civic over a used Mazda3, for example, is just idiotic.

I completely agree with you.  Whenever someone asks me what car I suggest for them to get (which thankfully happens not infrequently; good for my ego:)), I ask them if they have small kids:  car or suv?  If they say car, I'll suggest a bunch of different makes and list the pros and cons of the accord.  Cons:  ubiquitous, relatively noisy, pricey if you load it up.  Pros:  drives well with good road feel for its class, good ergonomics, looks good (I know subjective), reliable, and you will have no problem selling it for more than its worth after several years.  On the back end (so to speak), unless your car has been in a flood or other catastrophe, you will be surprised how quickly you'll be able to unload it.  

I don't see this changing anytime soon.  I think hyundai/kia has really taken the japanese and american auto manufacturers by storm and a large reason for this is their 10 year, 100,000 mile powertrain warranty and considerably less gracious but still good bumper to bumper warranty (I think 5 year, 60,000 miles).  That only applies to the original owner.  A second owner only gets 5 years, 60,000 miles powertrain warranty from the date of original purchase.  On the used car market, no one wants hyundais and kias because there's no reason to get one other than a low ball price.  Since the 90s and maybe even 80s, hondas and toyotas were meant to go 200,000 miles without major repairs.  Only in the last decade, have the other makes caught up (and not fully yet).  

Are Hondas worth it?  New, yes, as long as you don't load it up because you'll be paying close to or over 30,000 then and in my mind you might as well get an entry lux for a few thousand more.  Used, no way.  Low ball a hyundai owner like me and end up with a steal.  (I don't mind.  I just have to drive my car until time/or rust make it no longer road worthy).  

[93JC]

He's full of contradictions.

Because he's a troll.

Srsly guise, why do you even respond to his comments? He's a dingbat, he's not worthy of your time.

[ifcar]

If you're the seller, at least. I feel Hondas are a pretty good value new, especially the Accord. But the used prices on them are outrageous, in my opinion. I think there are much, much better used deals than what Honda offers. I've seen Accords priced almost as much as 3ers of similar year/mileage.

Buying a used Civic over a used Mazda3, for example, is just idiotic.

Unless they favor interior space, ride quality and fuel economy over handling.

[2o6]

If you're the seller, at least. I feel Hondas are a pretty good value new, especially the Accord. But the used prices on them are outrageous, in my opinion. I think there are much, much better used deals than what Honda offers. I've seen Accords priced almost as much as 3ers of similar year/mileage.

Buying a used Civic over a used Mazda3, for example, is just idiotic.

I wouldn't say it's idiotic. Fuel economy of the Mazda 3 is worse, and so is interior room (as ifcar said). Also, when I was shopping a few months ago, Mazda 3's had some of the worst corrosion protection out there; some models had some pretty unsightly rust and some bad corrosion underneath, especially compared to the Honda and Toyota products I looked at.



Besides, the old Civic isn't anything to sleep on in the driving dynamics department. It's not as good as the Mazda, but still pretty nice in it's own right.

[Raza]

I think his point was that the Mazda is 90% the car at 80% (or less) the price.

[2o6]

I think his point was that the Mazda is 90% the car at 80% (or less) the price.

But that isn't always true....

[ifcar]

I think his point was that the Mazda is 90% the car at 80% (or less) the price.

If that was his point, he didn't say it. He said that someone is "idiotic" for not sharing his tastes for the sportier but less practical and economical choice.

[93JC]

Yup.

[TurboDan]

Unless they favor interior space,

It's a compact car. If space is so important, why aren't you looking for a midsize?

ride quality

This is subjective. I found the Civic to be inferior to the Mazda3 when I drove them both in 2010 – the Mazda as a rental, the Civic from someone I know. I found the overall feel of the Mazda3 to be far more confident.

and fuel economy over handling.

Would anyone really care about the miniscule difference? Take 2010 for example, the year most used buyers will be looking at now. City MPG was the same (21-25 for Mazda, 21-26 for Civic) and highway was a max 3mpg difference (33 vs. 36). If a difference of 3mpg is enough to convince someone to buy a totally different car, I feel sorry for them. That's absolute insanity.

[TurboDan]

If that was his point, he didn't say it. He said that someone is "idiotic" for not sharing his tastes for the sportier but less practical and economical choice.

"Less practical" is buying a Maserati instead. These are both mainstream economy cars. They're both the definition of practical. If you can save yourself from the boredom on wheels that is the Civic by buying a car that's going to cost you LESS money, why wouldn't you?

[ifcar]

So, your argument is that someone who wants more room than a Mazda3 shouldn't buy a roomy compact car but should instead get all the excitement of a low-end midsize car for that money? Got it.

[TurboDan]

So, your argument is that someone who wants more room than a Mazda3 shouldn't buy a roomy compact car but should instead get all the excitement of a low-end midsize car for that money? Got it.

Front legroom is two tenths of an inch more in the Honda. Front legroom in the Honda is six-tenths of an inch more. Rear headroom is one tenth of an inch more in the Honda.  Trunk space is two-tenth of a foot more.

Where is all this extra space? The cars are basically the same. As I said, if you really care that much about having more space, why are you looking at a compact car?

Your case so far hinges on fractions of inches of space and 3mpg highway...

[ifcar]

And yours hinges on your personal preference for handling over ride quality and quietness, and a flat-out refusal to acknowledge that anyone else's tastes are valid.

Also, real-world interior volume differences between the Civic and Mazda3 are greater than whatever the useless numbers say anyway.

[2o6]

Front legroom is two tenths of an inch more in the Honda. Front legroom in the Honda is six-tenths of an inch more. Rear headroom is one tenth of an inch more in the Honda.  Trunk space is two-tenth of a foot more.

Where is all this extra space? The cars are basically the same. As I said, if you really care that much about having more space, why are you looking at a compact car?

Your case so far hinges on fractions of inches of space and 3mpg highway...

Why do you rationalize differences as if they mean nothing? In that case, why should anyone buy the Mazda 3 in the first place?

[TurboDan]

And yours hinges on your personal preference for handling over ride quality and quietness, and a flat-out refusal to acknowledge that anyone else's tastes are valid.

Also, real-world interior volume differences between the Civic and Mazda3 are greater than whatever the useless numbers say anyway.

So when the numbers prove your point wrong, they're useless. Got it.

"Ride quality" is as subjective as anything else, by the way, and I submit the quality of the ride in the Mazda3 is superior anyway. But take all of that off the table, and you still have a Honda Civic that is outrageously priced compared to a similarly optioned Mazda3 of the same year/mileage. The case for buying the Honda instead of the Mazda doesn't make any sense.

[2o6]

So when the numbers prove your point wrong, they're useless. Got it.

"Ride quality" is as subjective as anything else, by the way, and I submit the quality of the ride in the Mazda3 is superior anyway. But take all of that off the table, and you still have a Honda Civic that is outrageously priced compared to a similarly optioned Mazda3 of the same year/mileage. The case for buying the Honda instead of the Mazda doesn't make any sense.

Have you really been inside the back of a Civic or Mazda 3? The rear seat of the Civic is superior, even if only fractionally. Then you get into the fuel economy, and then other model-specific issues, and the Civic isn't as "stupid" of an idea as you say.

[ChrisV]

But is the fractional increase in fuel economy going to save you enough money to pay for the increase in initial buy in? That's his point. There is no rational reason to spend so much more to buy the Honda other than badge/reputation.

[hotrodalex]

So which engines are better than the LS/HEMI engines? Judging on power, reliability, size/weight, cost, etc.

Cougs?

[ifcar]

So when the numbers prove your point wrong, they're useless. Got it.

"Ride quality" is as subjective as anything else, by the way, and I submit the quality of the ride in the Mazda3 is superior anyway. But take all of that off the table, and you still have a Honda Civic that is outrageously priced compared to a similarly optioned Mazda3 of the same year/mileage. The case for buying the Honda instead of the Mazda doesn't make any sense.

The numbers are irrelevant if you plan to sit in a seat instead of a number. The shape of the car and the front and rear seats make a huge difference. I've said this for years; it's not like I go around saying "the rear-seat hiproom measurement proves my point."

Okay, so ride quality is subjective; you're conceding then that for some people it's not "idiotic" to prefer one over the other?

The only thing idiotic is projecting your tastes onto everyone else. There is practically no car on the market that there is no conceivable good reason for someone to buy if it meets their particular tastes, Civic included.

[GoCougs]

So which engines are better than the LS/HEMI engines? Judging on power, reliability, size/weight, cost, etc.

Most all engines are.