No Hope Whatsoever with Lincoln After this Statement from FMC

[veeman]

Which of the new jaguars are ugly?  I find them sleek and elegant and better looking than any non-super car out there.

[Raza]

Which of the new jaguars are ugly?  I find them sleek and elegant and better looking than any non-super car out there.

The XJ is hideous from every angle, especially from the back, where it looks like a Lincoln sexually assaulting a Citroen, and the XK's recent facelift took one of the best looking cars on the market and made the front fascia look like that of a mutated trout.  There is nothing sleek about the XJ.  It's a large, visually hefty, hulking beast that should have been eradicated from existence along with the team who thought up the idea.

[GoCougs]

Bullshit.  GM's rebadging has been much much worse.  Lincoln at least redesigned the sheetmetal.  GM would just slap a different badge on the same exact vehicle.  And for the record, Mulally wanted to kill Lincoln off with Mercury and focue on just one brand.  It was the one and only thing Bill Ford vetoed in Mulally's plans.

The WHOLE Lincoln line up is a rebadge/reskin operation. GM never did that with its brands.

Mulally is still on the hook for the outcome however.

And in general the whole naming thing ain't an issue. Nobody confuses the ES, GS, LS, and IS because Lexus has built significant brand equity.

[Raza]

The WHOLE Lincoln line up is a rebadge/reskin operation. GM never did that with its brands.

What was Pontiac then?

[sportyaccordy]

How are Jags ugly

[veeman]

While looks are clearly a personal thing, most of the car mags love the look of the current jag line up.  I have yet to read a negative review of the new jaguars regarding their looks.  Although i do agree the xk snout is a bit too fishy looking.  The xj is their flagship and should look like a large saloon.  To each his own.

[SVT666]

The WHOLE Lincoln line up is a rebadge/reskin operation. GM never did that with its brands.

GMC

[Laconian]

What a crappy article, where's the value added analysis?  SEOooooo

[Raza]

How are Jags ugly

They were designed that way.

[cawimmer430]

Why do you think that when no other luxury brand does that?

Call me old fashioned.

The glory days of Cadillac and Lincoln are associated with names like Eldorado, DeVille, Town Car, Continental, Versailles etc. Call it "History & Heritage". Why get rid of those names? They could still be producing a CTS as a "DeVille" or an XTS as a "Fleetwood Brougham". To me this makes more sense than all the ATS, CTS etc. stuff.

[cawimmer430]

When you use "old" names like Fleetwood, Brougham, Park Avenue, Continental, etc. that will drive people to other brands.  Those names evoke an image of old and stodgy.

I see your reasoning but I am of a different opinion.

Also, aren't most Cadillac and Lincoln buyers still relatively old? I can see the CTS as being something driven by young and old alike, but an XTS or Escalade?

[cawimmer430]

I agree 100%. Yes its true the product itself isn't that great, but when the car names are some jumble of alphabet soup that doesn't help get customers into the showrooms in the first place.

MZKS? Who gives a shit? Continental? Mark X? Those names attached to strong design can (and did!) evoke EMOTION, which is how the Americans need to play the game. I am still not convinced that aping the Germans, with their cold (and now completely illogical) naming system and formulaic segmenting is the way. Germans have German segments cornered and are damn good at that. Big breakout volume cars for Lexus (and to some degree the Infiniti G) were decidedly UNGerman- ES & RX. So Lincoln is on a somewhat logical path in going left

The problem is they need to further separate from Ford. MKZ/MKS should combine to become the Continental. Call on the classic- suicide doors and all (think of how much easier they would make loading a baby seat for example). Throw one of those whale mouth filter grills on a Mustang and call it the Mark X (you know, like the good old days). Do something about that god awful CUV boat, make it something people want to be seen in, not a Lincoln R-Class. Etc. These guys have an opportunity and plenty of old brand cachet to cash in on, they just need to seize it.

[cawimmer430]

it looks like a Lincoln sexually assaulting a Citroen

[2o6]

How are Jags ugly

...and people talk about me.

[TurboDan]

They need real historic names like they had in the past like Continental, Town Car, Versailles, Capri etc.

I'm not against real names for cars, but "Town Car" is for taxi drivers and octogenarians. No brand is going to be revitalized with names like "Town Car."

You didn't see it because you're from Germany, but Town Cars and Continentals were sold to old people in retirement communities who drove them at 15mph and annoyed everyone else on the road. Nobody wants to be associated with those names. They're gone and should stay gone for good.

This isn't a defense of the "MK..." names, but those old names need to stay dead.

[TurboDan]

A Cadillac XLR could have been called an Allante or Eldorado or Coupe Deville for example. Sounds much more luxurious and traditional.

The Allante did not have a good reputation. They had tons of problems, which is why you hardly see any on the road anymore. I've driven an Allante before (gf's dad owns one), and while it's a cool car, there's always... something... going on with it. It was also FWD with a Northstar V8, which produces torque steer hell and turned a lot of people off, which is exactly why the XLR should NOT have been named the Allante.

Also, why would you give a modern, crisp-handling, drop-top, luxury roadster the name of a land yacht (El Dorada, DeVille) that everyone makes fun of? Chris, your perspective on American cars is so weird. 

Finally, this goes back to one of the things I've been saying all along. Lexus has kept their model range steady for years. So have most of the other luxury brands. That's why no one has a problem with their names. When you (as in the case of the XLR) make a roadster, then stop making it, then decide 15 years later to do it again, etc., you have no brand recognition. Caddy needs to have a CONSISTENT LINEUP of vehicles and not give up on models or let them languish. The names aren't the problem as much as the consistency.

For example, I know the difference between a Lexus IS, ES, GS and LS. I have no idea which Lincoln is which. Why? Because Lexus keeps a steady lineup. Period.

[Madman]

I don't know why they just don't introduce NEW names?

[TurboDan]

I'm sure they have some Jag designs laying around.  I bet Ford could make a Jag-like Jag that isn't as fuck ugly as Jags are now.

Pretty sure Tata got all of Jag's intellectual property, which would include the designs.

For the record, I think the current Jag lineup is stunning, and the best the brand has produced in years. They have more attractive cars, IMO, than any of the German brands.

[68_427]

GMC

GMC makes money.

[cawimmer430]

I'm not against real names for cars, but "Town Car" is for taxi drivers and octogenarians. No brand is going to be revitalized with names like "Town Car."

I realize "Town Car" is old school but it's also a tradition at Lincoln. In fact to me the Town Car was the "best" Lincoln available in recent times because it looked pretty good and had the typical features of a classic American luxury car: RWD, V8, cushy ride and interior space (I think it was spacious...never rode in one).

You didn't see it because you're from Germany, but Town Cars and Continentals were sold to old people in retirement communities who drove them at 15mph and annoyed everyone else on the road. Nobody wants to be associated with those names. They're gone and should stay gone for good.

This isn't a defense of the "MK..." names, but those old names need to stay dead.

What names or badging do you think Lincoln should make use of? The MK_ stuff just sounds weird and characterless to me. The old names invoke positive feelings to me and thoughts of gorgeous, fullsize luxury cars with character. 

[cawimmer430]

The Allante did not have a good reputation. They had tons of problems, which is why you hardly see any on the road anymore. I've driven an Allante before (gf's dad owns one), and while it's a cool car, there's always... something... going on with it. It was also FWD with a Northstar V8, which produces torque steer hell and turned a lot of people off, which is exactly why the XLR should NOT have been named the Allante.

Ok, maybe NOT Allante, but Eldorado, which has for the most part always been a coupe in the Cadillac lineup. And although they switch to FWD in 1967, I don't think it's a big deal to most people. The Eldorado had/has a high standing in the Cadillac lineup and probably amongst enthusiasts. The XLR could have been called "Eldorado" and "Eldorado V" (performance version) for example.

Why was the Allante not built on a RWD Corvette platform?

Also, why would you give a modern, crisp-handling, drop-top, luxury roadster the name of a land yacht (El Dorada, DeVille) that everyone makes fun of? Chris, your perspective on American cars is so weird. 

Finally, this goes back to one of the things I've been saying all along. Lexus has kept their model range steady for years. So have most of the other luxury brands. That's why no one has a problem with their names. When you (as in the case of the XLR) make a roadster, then stop making it, then decide 15 years later to do it again, etc., you have no brand recognition. Caddy needs to have a CONSISTENT LINEUP of vehicles and not give up on models or let them languish. The names aren't the problem as much as the consistency.

For example, I know the difference between a Lexus IS, ES, GS and LS. I have no idea which Lincoln is which. Why? Because Lexus keeps a steady lineup. Period.

True. Well said.

[SVT666]

GMC makes money.

I'm not arguing that.  He stated GM has never shamelessly rebadged an entire lineup for one nameplate before.  They have, and it's called GMC.  Most of Chevys and Pontiacs were the same car too.  Cougs is full of shit.  Lincoln at least redesigns the sheetmetal and interior.

[Madman]

Nope, no shameless rebadges here!

[Atomic]

What a crappy article, where's the value added analysis?  SEOooooo

Good point. Awaiting my weekly issue of Automotive News to read the story this came out of. Part of this edition is devoted to Ford-Lincoln and their future products. Each week until October (as I recall) will feature all manufacturers with cars sold in the U.S. As with all other companies there will be details cited by CEO's, chief designers, suppliers, etc. I will report back with as much info the publication will allow me to copy or I provide vital details if links and copying is restricted.

Thanks for pointing this out. Check back, the publication should be delivered UPS this Friday.

[Atomic]

^Madman, you are so evil  ! Keep up the great work. Hehehe...

[TurboDan]

I realize "Town Car" is old school but it's also a tradition at Lincoln.

It's a "tradition" that has gotten them into the spot they're in today: nobody wants to buy their cars.

[Atomic]

It's a "tradition" that has gotten them into the spot they're in today: nobody wants to buy their cars.

So right, Dan.

BTW: I read today that Lincoln only has 200 new Town Car's in reserve and it is my understanding that they are all black and will likely be sold as livery sedans and at a premium. Cannot recall the exact number, but it is something like 1,600 -- the number of Crown Vic Interceptor's available.

[Raza]

Pretty sure Tata got all of Jag's intellectual property, which would include the designs.

For the record, I think the current Jag lineup is stunning, and the best the brand has produced in years. They have more attractive cars, IMO, than any of the German brands.

The XJ is by far the worst looking car in its class.  And now I don't have to look at one everyday since Marc Vetri seems to have traded his in for a brand new 550i (he parks outside my apartment). And they fucked up the XK really badly.  The XF isn't bad though; it looks less like a Lexus now than it did before, but still not really a pretty car. 

I don't understand why you all love it.  I suspect brand blindness.  You're all so used to Jaguars looking so effortlessly cool and classic that when they come out with something unspeakably ugly you don't know how to react other than to pretend it's still good looking.  Put a Hyundai badge on it and your preconceived notions of British style would disappear. 

[Raza]

It's a "tradition" that has gotten them into the spot they're in today: nobody wants to buy their cars.

Yeah; no one wants to drive a Town Car when it's associated with old people and hired cars.  That's all they are.  Old people and hired Town Cars for people who are too important to take a taxi, but don't have their own car. 

[2o6]

The XJ is by far the worst looking car in its class.  And now I don't have to look at one everyday since Marc Vetri seems to have traded his in for a brand new 550i (he parks outside my apartment). And they fucked up the XK really badly.  The XF isn't bad though; it looks less like a Lexus now than it did before, but still not really a pretty car. 

I don't understand why you all love it.  I suspect brand blindness.  You're all so used to Jaguars looking so effortlessly cool and classic that when they come out with something unspeakably ugly you don't know how to react other than to pretend it's still good looking.  Put a Hyundai badge on it and your preconceived notions of British style would disappear. 

The lines and proportions on modern Jaguars are classic and very good, and the design language is the least fussy in the segment. I can't legitimately call any of Jag's competitors (in any of the segments they compete in) "good looking". What do you think is a better looking car?



Old XJ looked very, very old.