IL: Tesla Model S

[2o6]

If you put making money immediately as a goal for any business, we won't be able to innovate ever. Every innovation is a risk, and making money is postponed from the time the product is released. Yes, for electric cars this gap is big, that's why there are subsidies. Yes, this is not pure market, but newsflash for Cougs - it never is. I think people need to plan on longer horizons, taking risks. And they do. If they weren't, this county wouldn't exist.

There are many positive reviews of electric cars/bikes. People praise the handling, the packaging, the drivetrain characteristics (instant torks etc.). I can't believe people who think reciprocating pistons compressing dead dinosaurs is the top of the automotive evolution.

I agree. At this point, Tesla is making the only electric car that looks like an actual car that people would drive, has the power Americans really want and can drive farther than a block without running out of power. I'm rooting for them.

What are our electric alternatives? The odd looking Volt? The odder looking hippie-mobile Leaf? Give me a break.

Tesla has no viable business plan, though.


When Toyota got subsidies from the Japanese government to develop the Prius back in the early 90's, that was a huge boost to getting the project started. However, for quite some time, Prius was a loss leader until Toyota started leveraging the heck out of the technology.

- Toyota let other automakers base their hybrids on Toyotas (which is arguably still the best in the business), namely Ford and Nissan.
- Toyota leveraged the heck out of the tech by using it on other, higher-profit vehicles (Camry, Highlander, Estima, any Lexus)

- Heck, even Chinese BYD is smart enough to have their lineup of clones to support their electric car venture (BYD E6)

It was OK for Prius to be losing money because Toyota could cover over it with profit from the rest of the lineup. Tesla has none of those things.


OK, maybe that isn't super fair. But consider this:

- Roadster was basically an Electric Elise....why the heck were you losing so much money on those? You shouldn't have had to develop too much running gear for the car; it was already done for you.
- What is model S based upon? What will it be leveraged against? Developing ONE standalone model that doesn't look like it shares anything with anything else doesn't seem to be a very bright business plan. That seems like money out the door.....most other electric cars share something, a platform, with a gas powered car. Nissan Leaf is on Renault/Nissan's B-platform (shared with Versa and about 10 other subcompact/compacts), Volt is a Chevy Cruze with some changes, and Volt's platform is planned for use in at least two other hybrids (one being a Cadillac). Fit EV is obvously a Honda Fit. Prius is fairly related to Corolla (original one is related to Echo/Yaris). Insight and CRZ are Fit based.

- The all electric Coda EV (which people forget exists) is a Chinese Hafei Saibo with nicer wheels. Although it looks poor, the basic car itself was likely dirt cheap to work off of. They didn't have to design an electric system AND A car. And given the decent specs (88 charging range, charges 2x as fast as other EV's) it might succeed despite it's non sexy styling.

-

Tesla has no business plan. They're coming out with product that the market isn't sure it even wants, and then they sell it at a loss. They don't seem to be making any steps towards the future.

[ergodic]

Making an electric car which is practical (well, as much as an electric car can currently be because of range/recharge time) and exciting to drive (unlike Leaf and Volt) is not a viable business idea?

By that token, WTF is BMW thinking releasing their M-series cars decade after decade... Stick to 116i you stupid Germans!

Also, hard to believe monetary payoff takes precedence over cool tech and driving experience on a car forum... In a Fast Lane section no less. What are you, a Toyota accountant?

[Raza]

Making an electric car which is practical (well, as much as an electric car can currently be because of range/recharge time) and exciting to drive (unlike Leaf and Volt) is not a viable business idea?

By that token, WTF is BMW thinking releasing their M-series cars decade after decade... Stick to 116i you stupid Germans!

Also, hard to believe monetary payoff takes precedence over cool tech and driving experience on a car forum... In a Fast Lane section no less. What are you, a Toyota accountant?

Exciting cars as a whole aren't viable.  That's why the Camry is the top selling car and not the Golf GTI, despite costing around the same and being nearly as practical.  The ones that exist are propped up by boring ones.  That's what makes the Volt more viable than the rest of these jokes, despite being kind of a joke itself.  The future of commuter cars is going to look a lot more like a Chevy Volt than a Tesla S.

[ergodic]

Exciting cars as a whole aren't viable.  That's why the Camry is the top selling car and not the Golf GTI, despite costing around the same and being nearly as practical.  The ones that exist are propped up by boring ones.  That's what makes the Volt more viable than the rest of these jokes, despite being kind of a joke itself.  The future of commuter cars is going to look a lot more like a Chevy Volt than a Tesla S.

Oh, I agree with the latter. But the future performance cars are going to be more like a Tesla S. :)

I just don't think these things are a joke. IC will be heading out of the door in our life times I think. What comes to replace it I have no way of knowing. Electric motor is a pretty good alternative as far as I understand, but to use it effectively we need to learn how to store/produce electricity in more flexible ways.

Oh, and to all the in-house automotive engineers - please, don't reply with 'LOLWUTZ, you don't know shit about the industry, and I mean it in the nicest possible way' nonsense. If you really know something, you can explain it in simple terms. Not the details obviously, but the concepts. Most of people here are technical enough to get it.

[2o6]

I don't think Tesla's idea is a joke, I actually think it's a wonderful concept. I even think the product they offer is pretty well executed.



However, their business practices are backwards and shortsighted.

Making an electric car which is practical (well, as much as an electric car can currently be because of range/recharge time) and exciting to drive (unlike Leaf and Volt) is not a viable business idea?

Not what I said. I'm saying the way they are going about it is totally wrong.

By that token, WTF is BMW thinking releasing their M-series cars decade after decade... Stick to 116i you stupid Germans!

M-cars are full of profit; they use basic BMW's as a starter.

Also, hard to believe monetary payoff takes precedence over cool tech and driving experience on a car forum... In a Fast Lane section no less. What are you, a Toyota accountant?

If the company doesn't have a future, all of their products are useless. Who cares if this car is good if they won't be able to make anything else.

[Raza]

Oh, I agree with the latter. But the future performance cars are going to be more like a Tesla S. :)

I just don't think these things are a joke. IC will be heading out of the door in our life times I think. What comes to replace it I have no way of knowing. Electric motor is a pretty good alternative as far as I understand, but to use it effectively we need to learn how to store/produce electricity in more flexible ways.

Oh, and to all the in-house automotive engineers - please, don't reply with 'LOLWUTZ, you don't know shit about the industry, and I mean it in the nicest possible way' nonsense. If you really know something, you can explain it in simple terms. Not the details obviously, but the concepts. Most of people here are technical enough to get it.

All I can say is that I hope you're wrong. 

[ergodic]

I care. Not about Tesla as a company, but about the whole new trend. Actually, innovating is not a new trend. It's quite old. :)

But speaking of an electric car sub-trend of that trend: Tesla is just a company. Ok, the current situation doesn't play out for them, the subsidies end, the economy tanks etc. They still developed something cool and new, which might be used by someone else in better circumstances. I don't bet on Tesla being profitable, though I definitely hope it works for therm. I bet on them having a right idea, which is a step forward overall.

[Raza]

The death of the internal combustion engine means the death of sound, feel, and the manual transmission.  You won't see me in an electric car.

[Onslaught]

The death of the internal combustion engine means the death of sound, feel, and the manual transmission.  You won't see me in an electric car.

Well, the manual is dead regardless. I'm no more happy about that then you are. But I think we all know it's coming one day.

As for sound, well have a different sound. Or well have sounds pumped into the cars like the modern BMW's do because they don't sound good even with a combustion engine in it.  I don't agree about the feel part.

I want to see what they can do with electric cars. I'm not as dead set against them as many of the people here are.

[ifcar]

Even if electric takes over, there will probably be a niche for the gas engine. The same one that the manual transmission now occupies, I imagine: for the cheapest cars, and for people who like a certain feel/character.

[LonghornTX]

I don't think Tesla's idea is a joke, I actually think it's a wonderful concept. I even think the product they offer is pretty well executed.



However, their business practices are backwards and shortsighted.

You should research their business more then, as they are using pretty standard business practices from the industry (platform sharing and outsourcing their technological know-how)

[GoCougs]

You should research their business more then, as they are using pretty standard business practices from the industry (platform sharing and outsourcing their technological know-how)

I think he's probably talking about their vertical integration - they're winding their own motors, stamping their own motors, molding their own bumpers, etc., all on site. Pretty much no one does that; Tesla was able to do so because someone else is paying most of their bills.

[2o6]

You should research their business more then, as they are using pretty standard business practices from the industry (platform sharing and outsourcing their technological know-how)

Are you sure? All the stuff I've read makes it sound like they only sell off a little bit of their EV know-how. Plus the fact that I can't find anything about platform sharing (that isn't the Elise-based roadster)

I think he's probably talking about their vertical integration - they're winding their own motors, stamping their own motors, molding their own bumpers, etc., all on site. Pretty much no one does that; Tesla was able to do so because someone else is paying most of their bills.

Yeah, it just seems like the project has a insane amount of overhead for such a limited and unknown market. Almost everything on a modern car is sourced from some 3rd party supplier....Tesla is making everything up themselves.

[GoCougs]

Yeah, it just seems like the project has a insane amount of overhead for such a limited and unknown market. Almost everything on a modern car is sourced from some 3rd party supplier....Tesla is making everything up themselves.

Tesla says it was to "control quality." Thing is, outsourcers will generally be better at those commodity activities than the source manufacturer, especially a brand new manufacturer like Tesla. Search hard enough and I'm sure we'd find that adding a certain # of jobs was a condition of the government money.

[LonghornTX]

Are you sure? All the stuff I've read makes it sound like they only sell off a little bit of their EV know-how. Plus the fact that I can't find anything about platform sharing (that isn't the Elise-based roadster)

RAV-4 EV happened because of Tesla. Same with the SMART EV. They do a fair amount of it...

And yea, they are going to share the Model S platform (proprietary) with the Model X, which is a forthcoming CUV