Ford Mondeo!

[2o6]

I only am spending a couple minutes searching, because I doubt those sell very many at all, comparitively speaking.

Top10 selling the last couple years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best_selling_automobiles_in_Europe

Oh and here are the top 318= http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/04/the-top-318-best-selling-cars-in-europe-hint-the-corolla-is-nowhere-to-be-seen/
(scroll down) Apparently there ARE a few small SUVs pretty high up.

But compare that with the US http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/04/us-best-selling-vehicles-march-2012.html

And "SUV's are almost as popular in your market as they are ours." is not accurate. Look at how many little cars sell so much better there!! And here in the US of A, just since 2008 a lot of people STARTED buying littler cars..

Your point? Cars like CRV, RAV4 and similar aren't on the top 10 lists, but they sell in large numbers.



Let's compare the sales of models YTD of say, Germany.

http://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2012/09/08/germany-august-2012-private-sales-audi-q3-6-dacia-duster-9/

1    VW Golf/Plus/Jetta    5,868    32%    1    18,111    1
2    Mercedes B-Klasse    3,611    67%    3    5,381    5
3    VW Polo    3,605    69%    2    5,248    6
4    Mercedes C-Klasse    2,153    38%    5    5,621    4
5    VW Up!    2,021    59%    6    3,432    15
6    Audi Q3    1,837    68%    9    2,685    21
7    Seat Ibiza    1,831    77%    8    2,390    25
8    VW Tiguan    1,757    51%    4    3,419    16
9    Dacia Duster    1,702    90%    7    1,897    36
10    BMW 1er    1,549    45%    17    3,457    14
11    Skoda Octavia    1,432    43%    16    3,293    17
12    Skoda Fabia    1,272    45%    22    2,834    19
13    Skoda Yeti    1,198    70%    n/a    1,711    38
14    Opel Corsa    1,197    25%    n/a    4,806    7
15    VW Touran    1,115    30%    10    3,667    11
16    Hyundai ix35    1,107    84%    21    1,320    49
17    Toyota Yaris    1,103    75%    14    1,473    45
18    BMW X1    1,062    52%    n/a    2,050    31
19    Nissan Qashqai    1,052    53%    15    1,970    34
20    Mercedes GLK    1,024    47%    n/a


The ones in bold are SUV's...


Then you get into tall B and C segment cars (B-class, Touran and friends) that offer most of the idea behind a CUV minus the AWD and bigger tires.

[AutobahnSHO]

Still way lower than the US SUV sales. My only point.

[cawimmer430]

SUV's are almost as popular in your market as they are ours. Stop saying that no one likes SUV's when there's far more involved than just AWD.

The SUVs popular here are mostly smaller SUVs a la X1, Tiguan, GLK, Q3/Q5 and very few midsize SUVs. Big SUVs like a GL, G-Class, Q7 are RARE. And virtually 8 out of 10 SUVs here are bought with powerful yet economical diesel engines.

In Europe hatchbacks and wagons are far more popular than SUVs.

[2o6]

So? Not every SUV owner drives a Tahoe.

[AutobahnSHO]

In Europe hatchbacks and wagons are far more popular than SUVs.

I know.

[cawimmer430]

So? Not every SUV owner drives a Tahoe.

Yet those big SUVs are the ones that don't come with a fuel-efficient engine option. I can get an efficient GL350 Bluetec or Audi Q7 3.0 TDI here if I need an efficient big SUV.

A Cadillac Escalade Hybrid is a joke. Just like all big and heavy hybrid SUVs. The BMW X6 Hybrid is also completely worthless and useless in my opinion, but at least you can get an X6 with efficient diesel engines that combine lively performance with acceptable fuel economy. A gasoline-hybrid fullsize SUV will get marginal fuel economy benefits over its gasoline-motor-only counterparts and it'll probably even get crappier fuel economy in mixed driving thanks to all the extra weight it has to lug around.

[2o6]

Your point?

[CJ]

You can get a diesel GL and a diesel Q7 here too.

[TurboDan]

The SUVs popular here are mostly smaller SUVs a la X1, Tiguan, GLK, Q3/Q5 and very few midsize SUVs. Big SUVs like a GL, G-Class, Q7 are RARE. And virtually 8 out of 10 SUVs here are bought with powerful yet economical diesel engines.

You need to take a trip to the US, Chris. Most of the SUVs sold here these days are sized similarly to all of those. VW dealers were literally out of Tiguans when my mom was looking for a car last winter.

Americans used to buy massive trucks, but that's mostly changed. I could see myself buying a Defender when it comes out in 2014-ish, but there's no way I'd ever buy something like a Suburban or even a Tahoe.

[Madman]

Yeah, small crossovers are one of the hottest (and most crowded) segments right now.  I've even been seeing a lot of non-car related publications doing write-ups on the most popular crossover models lately.  Hell, even this month's Good Housekeeping (It's the wife's magazine. Honestly!) has a big comparison of the segment leaders!

Even though it seems everyone is shopping for a CR-V/Escape/Equinox/CX-5/Tiguan/Tucson/RAV4/Forester/Rogue/Sportage/Terrain/Whatever, I think there is still a place for wagons.  A big part of the reason why they don't sell in big numbers is because the manufacturers have given up on marketing them.  Advertise them as aggressively as SUVs and crossovers and I guarantee wagon sales would skyrocket.

[Raza]

Yeah, small crossovers are one of the hottest (and most crowded) segments right now.  I've even been seeing a lot of non-car related publications doing write-ups on the most popular crossover models lately.  Hell, even this month's Good Housekeeping (It's the wife's magazine. Honestly!) has a big comparison of the segment leaders!

Even though it seems everyone is shopping for a CR-V/Escape/Equinox/Tiguan/Tucson/RAV4/Forester/Rogue/Sportage/Terrain/Whatever, I think there is still a place for wagons.  A big part of the reason why they don't sell in big numbers is because the manufacturers have given up on marketing them.  Advertise them as aggressively as SUVs and crossovers and I guarantee wagon sales would skyrocket.

Look at how hard Acura is advertising the TSX Spielartleiterwagen...and yet, I see more Gallardos.  And I tried to get my friend to look at one, and his biggest argument against it was "It's a wagon!"  He was fine looking at crossovers like the Tiguan and CX-5, but a wagon was seemingly out of the question with him and his wife.  It's an image problem that no one is willing to spend their money on to fix. 

[AutobahnSHO]

Subaru had Forester magazine ads way back when=  "The mighty (Nissan) Z just got smoked by a family of four and the dog".

They'd just need to do some "More interior room than [X SUV] but better gas mileage"
ads,ec...

[cawimmer430]

Your point?

My point is that the Cadillac "Bustle Back" Seville is friggin sexy. That's my point.

[cawimmer430]

You can get a diesel GL and a diesel Q7 here too.

Good. For such cars I wouldn't even consider a gasoline V8. It makes ZERO SENSE for such cars even if gas is cheap. Piss poor fuel economy means that even with a massive fuel tank those fill ups are often. I don't like that. Give me long range anyday.

[cawimmer430]

You need to take a trip to the US, Chris. Most of the SUVs sold here these days are sized similarly to all of those. VW dealers were literally out of Tiguans when my mom was looking for a car last winter.

Americans used to buy massive trucks, but that's mostly changed. I could see myself buying a Defender when it comes out in 2014-ish, but there's no way I'd ever buy something like a Suburban or even a Tahoe.

Again, people are free to buy what they like. But I honestly think the US lacks engine choices for many cars and I am sure you'll agree with me on that issue. 

[MX793]

Good. For such cars I wouldn't even consider a gasoline V8. It makes ZERO SENSE for such cars even if gas is cheap. Piss poor fuel economy means that even with a massive fuel tank those fill ups are often. I don't like that. Give me long range anyday.

My dad's former F150 could go over 400 miles on a tank, which is what you'd get out of your typical 4 cylinder economy car.  Fill-up frequency is about the same, you just pump a lot more gas in with each fill.

[AutobahnSHO]

My dad's former F150 could go over 400 miles on a tank, which is what you'd get out of your typical 4 cylinder economy car.  Fill-up frequency is about the same, you just pump a lot more gas in with each fill.

Like twices as much...   

I'm only putting about 8-9gal in the miata at fillups, gas gauge shows 1/8 left. But that's 220-240miles.

[Madman]

Look at how hard Acura is advertising the TSX Spielartleiterwagen...and yet, I see more Gallardos.

Acura is advertising the TSX wagon?  Really?  Where?  I must have blinked and missed it.

[Raza]

Acura is advertising the TSX wagon?  Really?  Where?  I must have blinked and missed it.

Up until recently, I used to see commercials for them quite often.  Like when they said it was based on a sports car...

[TurboDan]

Again, people are free to buy what they like. But I honestly think the US lacks engine choices for many cars and I am sure you'll agree with me on that issue. 

I'd like to see more diesel engines, yes. And I'd like to see more engine choices in smaller luxury cars like the 1er.

[SVT666]

We don't have a lack of engine choices.  We have a lack of transmissions.  Europe has all those engine choices for one reason and one reason only...taxes.  All those additional engine choices are in the low end (90 hp, 100 hp, 105 hp, etc).  Nobody would buy those engines here anyway.  Hell nobody in their right mind who isn't being taxed to death would ever choose those engines.

[2o6]

We don't have a lack of engine choices.  We have a lack of transmissions.  Europe has all those engine choices for one reason and one reason only...taxes.  All those additional engine choices are in the low end (90 hp, 100 hp, 105 hp, etc).  Nobody would buy those engines here anyway.  Hell nobody in their right mind who isn't being taxed to death would ever choose those engines.

Usually the tiny engines aren't even economical. A 1.2L Fiesta will be nothing but piss slow. You'll have to revv the dog out of it to get anywhere, and the 1.4L or 1.6L model will get better economy.

[SVT666]

Usually the tiny engines aren't even economical. A 1.2L Fiesta will be nothing but piss slow. You'll have to revv the dog out of it to get anywhere, and the 1.4L or 1.6L model will get better economy.

Displacement taxes cause these tiny engines to be options.

[2o6]

Displacement taxes cause these tiny engines to be options.

And wimmer will spin it as people buying "only what they need"

[Vinsanity]

The hilarity of it is that the resulting poor fuel consumption defeats the purpose of the displacement taxes anyway. Legislators here and abroad really have no grasp of the laws of physics, but apparently think they know better than engineers who spend years of their lives working on this shit.

[TurboDan]

The hilarity of it is that the resulting poor fuel consumption defeats the purpose of the displacement taxes anyway.

No, they don't. The displacement taxes are to make money, and that's what they do. Sure, they're passed under the guise of helping the environment, but they are there to make money, plain and simple.

[cawimmer430]

We don't have a lack of engine choices.  We have a lack of transmissions.  Europe has all those engine choices for one reason and one reason only...taxes.  All those additional engine choices are in the low end (90 hp, 100 hp, 105 hp, etc).  Nobody would buy those engines here anyway.  Hell nobody in their right mind who isn't being taxed to death would ever choose those engines.

Modern 105-horsepower engines aren't the same as 105-horsepower engines from many years ago. That's a fact. They're more agile, more responsive, more refined and give better performance and fuel economy than their predecessors. And not everyone cares about power so those motors make perfect sense for someone who just wants to go from A to B.

And you lack transmission choices because North Americans love automatics. The Dodge Dart is not selling well from what I've read because there's no A/T option at the moment...

[cawimmer430]

A 1.2L Fiesta will be nothing but piss slow. You'll have to revv the dog out of it to get anywhere...

Someone buying a Fiesta 1.2 won't give a crap about raw power. If they did there are other options in the Fiesta range to buy. By the way I drove a last generation Ford Fiesta base model diesel rental car once and it wasn't slow at all. Realistic everyday performance was good. It's no sports car but it's not supposed to be one.

Clearly you've been reading to much BMW and Driver magazine where the focus is on: RWD, V8, 6-speed M/T, 0-60 in 4 seconds (preferably less) and 10 second 1/4 miles. 


Also, the taxes aren't that drastic here for your average car unless you drive a Dodge Viper or some big block motor. And if you can afford that you can certainly afford to pay those taxes like I have said many times before. Let's get serious for a moment. Someone who can afford a Lamborghini or Ferrari or other big block exotic is not going to give a shit about fuel prices or engine cc taxes.

I pay 135 Euros in taxes a year on the 118i (11 Euros a month). That's nothing. A diesel 118d costs more in taxes a year (26 Euros / month, 309 Euros / year), and yet the 118d easily outsells the 118i. Diesel cars cost more to own in taxes in Europe, yet more than 50% of cars sold here are diesels.

A Cadillac Escalade 6.2-l V8 costs 35 Euros a month in taxes and 419 Euros a year in taxes. Let's put that into perspective: BMW 118d E87 = 309 Euros a year. Cadillac Escalade 6.2 = 419 Euros a year. What is a tax difference of 110 Euros at the end of the year? Nothing in the big picture.

Oh, and Cadillac Fleetwood Diesel from the late 1980s with a 6.8-l V8 costs a whooping 128 Euros a month and a 1,537 Euros a year in taxes based also on its emissions class.

And wimmer will spin it as people buying "only what they need"

No, people buy these engines here in order to save the unicorns from extinction!

[cawimmer430]

No, they don't. The displacement taxes are to make money, and that's what they do. Sure, they're passed under the guise of helping the environment, but they are there to make money, plain and simple.

They're also there to encourage people to drive efficient cars.

Notice the word "encourage". That means you're still free to buy whatever you like and many people do just that.

[Raza]

Usually the tiny engines aren't even economical. A 1.2L Fiesta will be nothing but piss slow. You'll have to revv the dog out of it to get anywhere, and the 1.4L or 1.6L model will get better economy.

That's a good point.  Remember Jeremy's 3 cylinder diesel Skoda Roomster?  He got worse gas mileage than the faster small cars.