Golf VII GTI

[Char]

Have you ever driven one?  They're kind of crap.  Terrible controls, little feel, and yes a GTI and my old Jetta Wolfsburg were much, much more fun to drive.  As a car to set lap times in a video game, it's great.  But to drive, it's really not fun at all.  Everything about it is underwhelming except for its spec sheet.

Driven All 3 version of the 350Z extensively, and it's not only an extremely competent car, but extremely fun. If you believe that a Jetta is more fun, I really have nothing more to say to you on this matter.

[Char]

2.0T is still slow even with the extra 80 HP. Also pretty heavy. K24 in the new Civic is a complete departure from the K20A, in pretty much the worst ways possible. 350Z is quick but heavy, impractical and dynamically flawed. Japanese Mustang BEFORE the Coyote makeover.

Like I think I said in this thread none of the cars in this segment are GREAT GREAT, they all have things you have to sacrifice on, I guess owing to their price point. I tell you one thing though. I would def go for a GTI over a Genesis or 350Z for a daily driver.

New Passat is a little blah, but why compare it to cars a class above it? I don't think it's uncompetitive in the context of Accords and Sonatas.

If the measure of a car is just its AWD system then yes the R32 is inferior. But you yourself just said the Lancer's interior is crap. WRX is too compared to the R32. And the VR6 sounds better than both. Not to mention if you had one of these cars, where would you ever go where the difference between the AWD system matters? It will still be way better than an FWD car and not as good as a RWD car.

I'd need to see proof that it's a widespread problem as you've already demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about sometimes.

If a pure driver's car = something uncompromising in the pursuit of driving pleasure, why bother with something like an STi, which is inherently compromised by its body style? Why not go all out... get a used Elise or an old Eclipse GSX? Yes a driver's car should be solid dynamically, but the idea that people wanting their daily drivers to be comfortable places is wrong is ridiculous. I have buddies with WRXs and EVOs. They do feel cheap inside. It may not matter to you (it doesn't to me) but it matters to some folks, and they are not wrong for that. Furthermore VWs, even in their interior quality prime, were not as expensive as say, Audis. There was a price premium but not as extreme as you're making it out to be.

If you're going to troll, you should know what you're talking about.

I'll just leave this here....
http://www.torquecars.com/audi/2-0-tfsi-tuning.php
http://www.golfmk6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37107


Older FSI motor
http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114143



http://forums.fourtitude.com/showthread.php?4518993-carbon-build-up

[Char]

Not much more for me to say. I'm not a dash stroke, though I do appreciate a nice interior and nothing you can say will convince me that a GTI is a "drivers car" A Mini Cooper? Sure, why not. Evolution/STI/BRZ (still waiting on my test drive), 350Z (yes, it's a mans car, and needs man like inputs, but I like it). The GTI isn't as fun as any of the cars I mentioned, and I find it ugly. I don't like hatchbacks (First generation MS3 and Mini Cooper are exceptions), I don't like the TSI motor, I don't like VWs engineering (or lack there of) I don't like it's stability control system, I don't like anything about it besides its interior. And to me, that isn't a compelling enough case to buy this car over anything else in the used market, or brand new cars in it's class.

No real car person would look me in the eye and tell me they bought this car over the others I mentioned if performance was their consideration. I don't want/or need a racecar. My car is already raw enough for me, and while fun, leaves a little to be desired as when it comes to comfort. But I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of refinement (not excessively so, like in the case of an Elise) for more performance. I don't know where Passats, 350Zs and came in the conversation, but it wasn't me who brought it up.

[Raza]

Driven All 3 version of the 350Z extensively, and it's not only an extremely competent car, but extremely fun. If you believe that a Jetta is more fun, I really have nothing more to say to you on this matter.

I've driven the 350Z when it first came out, when it got a power bump, two different 350Z convertibles, and a 370Z coupe.  All disappointments.  If you think they're so much fun, then you clearly have a definition of fun that's based on spec sheets only. 

[Raza]

Not much more for me to say. I'm not a dash stroke, though I do appreciate a nice interior and nothing you can say will convince me that a GTI is a "drivers car" A Mini Cooper? Sure, why not. Evolution/STI/BRZ (still waiting on my test drive), 350Z (yes, it's a mans car, and needs man like inputs, but I like it). The GTI isn't as fun as any of the cars I mentioned, and I find it ugly. I don't like hatchbacks (First generation MS3 and Mini Cooper are exceptions), I don't like the TSI motor, I don't like VWs engineering (or lack there of) I don't like it's stability control system, I don't like anything about it besides its interior. And to me, that isn't a compelling enough case to buy this car over anything else in the used market, or brand new cars in it's class.

No real car person would look me in the eye and tell me they bought this car over the others I mentioned if performance was their consideration. I don't want/or need a racecar. My car is already raw enough for me, and while fun, leaves a little to be desired as when it comes to comfort. But I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of refinement (not excessively so, like in the case of an Elise) for more performance. I don't know where Passats, 350Zs and came in the conversation, but it wasn't me who brought it up.

[sportyaccordy]

No real car person would look me in the eye and tell me they bought this car over the others I mentioned if performance was their consideration.

Performance != driving pleasure

But thanks for playing

[Char]

I've driven the 350Z when it first came out, when it got a power bump, two different 350Z convertibles, and a 370Z coupe.  All disappointments.  If you think they're so much fun, then you clearly have a definition of fun that's based on spec sheets only. 

I give up. Go race around a neighborhood at 100mph and tell me how the Jetta is more fun than a 350Z. I know more about the Z cars than you do, and I can tell you besides the changes in power (3 different motors) it received a different transmission, wheels and different suspension spec. You weren't driving hard enough, it's really that simple.

[Char]

Performance != driving pleasure

But thanks for playing

For me, they are one in the same, but thanks for playing. I didn't find the MK5 I drove a compelling case for the hype I see on this forum. It was pretty average.

[Raza]

I give up. Go race around a neighborhood at 100mph and tell me how the Jetta is more fun than a 350Z. I know more about the Z cars than you do, and I can tell you besides the changes in power (3 different motors) it received a different transmission, wheels and different suspension spec. You weren't driving hard enough, it's really that simple.

Haha....what's the point of a car that doesn't feel "fun" until you're doing over triple digits (which I've done several times in 350Zs)?

I'm glad that you memorized the Nissan brochures, but that doesn't mean shit when it comes to knowing about driving.  The 350Z is now and always has been a sedan that seats two and it drives like one. 

[2o6]

This kid is 15. His experience is GT5 and message boards.

[Char]

Haha....what's the point of a car that doesn't feel "fun" until you're doing over triple digits (which I've done several times in 350Zs)?

I'm glad that you memorized the Nissan brochures, but that doesn't mean shit when it comes to knowing about driving.  The 350Z is now and always has been a sedan that seats two and it drives like one. 

As opposed to a economy car that sits 4 people and drives like one? Got it.

[Raza]

For me, they are one in the same, but thanks for playing. I didn't find the MK5 I drove a compelling case for the hype I see on this forum. It was pretty average.

If you think they're so much fun, then you clearly have a definition of fun that's based on spec sheets only. 

So it's clearly yes, you can tell how much fun a car is off the spec sheet.  You're not an enthusiast, you're a mag racer. 

Also, "one in the same" is not the expression.  That doesn't even make sense.  It's "one and the same".  Unrelated, but it needed to be said. 

[Raza]

As opposed to a economy car that sits 4 people and drives like one? Got it.

The more you talk, the more I'm sure you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Have you ever driven a car? 

[Char]

The more you talk, the more I'm sure you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Have you ever driven a car?  

No. I won't let you pull me any further into this pissing match. I have no emotional involvement any of these cars, because unlike some of you, I'm not a direct extension of what I drive. Though I have to be honest, you're as big of a douche as every single VW driver I've ever met.

And it's hilarious that you call me a magazine racer when I haven't referenced one yet (and if I did, correct me.)  My experience has been absolutely hands on, from working on the cars to driving them, I don't need to vindicate myself by being a pretend journalist and writing "car review" on 5 minute test drives on the dealer lots.

My accusations aren't baseless. VW's do have questionable reliability, and the TSI motors do suffer from carbon build up issues, VW's also make poor track cars and in my opinion, are poor platform for modification (if your into that). What about you?

[2o6]

As I said, he's 15.

[Raza]

Though I have to be honest, you're as big of a douche as every single VW driver I've ever met.

Glad I didn't disappoint.  

[Submariner]

Ad Hominem
1.
appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2.
attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

I don't like the VW Golf (or any VW product to be honest), and what I drive (none of which are VW products) has anything to do with my opinion on specific automobiles. I told you my criteria for a sporty car, the VW doesn't meet any of those.

LOL

He's asking what you drive (assuming it's anything at all); he isn't attacking your character.  Establishing a foundation for your amusing viewpoint isn't ad hominem, it's just trying to cut through all your nonsense. 

A great laugh none-the-less...keep it up!

[sportyaccordy]

Poor form Char... jimmies clearly rustled

Kudos to Raza for making the point that a car that's fun above 100 MPH isn't necessarily a fun daily driver. Also important to drive the point home that a car that drives like a sedan with all the practicality and low running costs of a sedan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a car that drives like a sedan with the impracticality and high running costs of a sports car

Performance you can't access on the street = performance you basically don't have... and it's a net negative when the car makes sacrifices in practical attributes to achieve it. G is better in pretty much every way and way more honest. GTI is not bad either, better in every way for the avg Joe than the 350Z except for bench racing. W/minimal effort it will hang ten with a 350Z from a roll too.

[MexicoCityM3]

I think this Char character isn't that bad. Someone new to stir things up around here. If you read his posts coolly he makes some fair points.

[Cookie Monster]

I think this Char character isn't that bad. Someone new to stir things up around here. If you read his posts coolly he makes some fair points.

Except that if he said that shit about BMW's you'd probably be crying to laconian or catman to get him banned.

[MexicoCityM3]

Except that if he said that shit about BMW's you'd probably be crying to laconian or catman to get him banned.

Well, of course!

[cawimmer430]

"FUN TO DRIVE"

...is completely subjective and depends on the person. Period.

I've driven base 100-hp VW Golf TDI's and found them to be FUN in their own way.

[Galaxy]

"FUN TO DRIVE"

...is completely subjective and depends on the person. Period.

I've driven base 100-hp VW Golf TDI's and found them to be FUN in their own way.

Apropos fun base versions. Apparently the new base 114i is not that bad. More torque at 1100rpm then the Mini Cooper puts out at 4250rpm.

[TurboDan]

"FUN TO DRIVE"

...is completely subjective and depends on the person. Period.

I've driven base 100-hp VW Golf TDI's and found them to be FUN in their own way.

Exactly. There was an element of fun to the sub-100HP early '90s Protege that we had as a spare car years ago, to be honest.

[TurboDan]

In other news, I drove an LR2 yesterday. I really liked it.

Cool! And I know you disagree, but they really are great off-road. I've run through mud, deep sand, up rutted hills, and it's never blinked.

At the end of the day, it's an SUV. Most of them "feel" the same. There isn't much in the way of fun as far as daily driving goes. If the LR2 has Sport Truck tires on it, it handles well for such a heavy vehicle. Put cheap tires on it and you have trouble, from what I hear.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Cool! And I know you disagree, but they really are great off-road. I've run through mud, deep sand, up rutted hills, and it's never blinked.

At the end of the day, it's an SUV. Most of them "feel" the same. There isn't much in the way of fun as far as daily driving goes. If the LR2 has Sport Truck tires on it, it handles well for such a heavy vehicle. Put cheap tires on it and you have trouble, from what I hear.

I used to drive my Jetta off road through mud, sand, over small boulders and rutted hills with Falken Azenis tires. It never blinked... except that one time in the mud next to the bee hives...

[TurboDan]

1. Again, not interested in who has a faster dashboard. I think FWD cars, especially those that have an stability control system that cannot be disabled, are generally not for people who enjoy driving cars. Is the Evolution cheap? Very, and I can understand why someone would prefer the environment of the Passat more than the Lancer. However, that is not my admission that the Passat is a good car, because for it's price, there are better cars that I would rather have. It just makes no compelling case for me. An upscale midsize sedan that is kinda sporty and can be priced into the 30K range with a V6 puts in within range of better cars, like the G37, IS and if you want FWD, the Acura TSX.  All the cars I mentioned are dynamically superior, look better, and arguably have better reliability. Why buy a VW?

So your answer to a point on the value of a mainstream midsize car is to reference a Lexus compact? WTF? Load up a G37 with the options you want and price it against a Passat with a similar options package and get back to me. Passat runs $20K to $33K MSRP. I'd find it tough to squeak in under $40K with a new G37. The real-life price for a Passat with a reasonable options package is under $30K. Same as a decently equipped Camry or Accord.

2. All VWs AWD systems suck. Period. Has the R32 ever been on the level of the Evolution/STI? Nope. I don't expect that to change anytime soon when the AWD system is FWD based.

As has been mentioned, Evo is FWD based as well. You still have not articulated WHY you think any of these systems are inferior to others, except to say they "suck" and they're supposedly different than what's on the Evo. Every reviewer and video online would pretty much prove that VW can do AWD the right way. And what year is this? Nobody has given a shit about the Evo since like 2005 anyway. Mitsubishi has to be one foot inside of a bankruptcy courtroom in the US at this point.

3.   The TSI motors carbon buildup has less to do with the oil used, and more to do with VWs poor engineering. Because of the DI system, fuel doesn't clean off the blow by on the valves like it normally would in a port fuel injection car. Toyota obviously knows something VW doesn't, because their DI motors use both direct and port fuel injection, and I've heard of no issues with carbon build up. Word is that VW will be adding port fuel injection, but for the time being, people are stuck with a poorly designed engine and are trapped paying the dealer to clean up VWs engineering mistake. As usual.

The photos you posted are troll bait. Engines have been producing carbons since the day the internal combustion engine was invented. If you follow the proper oil recommendations and maintenance schedule there is no reason a TSI won't last forever. On most VW enthusiast boards, the consensus has been that the photos you posted may look alarming, but don't really mean anything in terms of reliability or performance.

4. Already addressed in my first post. What the feel of a more expensive car, buy one, considering the VWs are very near in price to many of them. Really, I'm not arguing about appliances, I'm talking about drivers cars. Nice dashboards, and smooth rides aren't, and shouldn't be a deal breaker on sporty cars. It's borderline ignorant to make comments comparing a Passat to a 350Z or Lancer, because to an enthusiast, there is no real comparison.

You really must be 15 years old to think a 350Z or a Lancer is the height of what is considered an enthusiast's driving machine. Additionally, most people don't have enough money to buy a dedicated "enthusiast car" and a dedicated "appliance." The majority of people want something that is well-built, comfortable, has the features/interior they want and no slouch. The current Passat is somewhat "appliance-like," but the B5, B5.5 and B6 models were most certainly not.

In addition, I don't think a $20K Passat or $16K Jetta qualify as being "very near in price" to luxury cars. For comparison's sake, the Passat's own cousin the A4 starts at $32K for a base model and the IS (we'll count that as a Jetta-sized car) starts at $35K ? way more than double the price.

[2o6]

Cool! And I know you disagree, but they really are great off-road. I've run through mud, deep sand, up rutted hills, and it's never blinked.

At the end of the day, it's an SUV. Most of them "feel" the same. There isn't much in the way of fun as far as daily driving goes. If the LR2 has Sport Truck tires on it, it handles well for such a heavy vehicle. Put cheap tires on it and you have trouble, from what I hear.

I don't think any SUV really 'handles', by nature they are compromised. High up in the air, with soft springs and big tires with lots of sidewall. But I liked the LR2 because it's comfortable, quiet, and 'right sized'; sometimes "Compact" SUV's can feel a little big and bulky.

[GoCougs]

I think this Char character isn't that bad. Someone new to stir things up around here. If you read his posts coolly he makes some fair points.

I completely agree.

Also, 350/370Z > GTI. However, I'd probably buy the (4-door) GTI because it is far more practical for me.

[850CSi]

As I said, he's 15.

Actually, the most interesting thing about this thread to me is that he has yet to respond to this accusation.