328i vs ATS- the verdicts are trickling in

[sportyaccordy]

Motor Trend- ATS
C&D- 328i

Lot of other places have reviewed it in isolation... here's what it seems to be

ATS strengths- handling

ATS weaknesses- everything else, but most frustratingly the uselessness of the mandatory CUE system. Because everyone whose ever used a smartphone and driven a car has said "man these A/C and volume knobs work great, but it sure would be better with a finicky haptic interface"

Which only makes the original question, "why an ATS over a 3er" that much more relevant... and difficult to answer

I wanted this car to win for the right reasons... but GM dun goofed AGAIN.

[2o6]

The ATS is just fine.

[SVT666]

The ATS is just fine.

Just fine is not good enough.

[2o6]

Enthusiasts are really the only ones who actually comparatively shop; most people will "like the way it drives" and think it "looks good" and it will sell well.


Almost as important, the car will likely gain success in Europe. It offers a daring design in a segment that GM has no entry. D-segment midsize "executive" cars are fastly losing market share (the reason why the Renault Laguna is no longer sold in some countries in Europe; Fiat doesn't even have a D-segment car) to entry level luxury cars such as the A4 and 3-series.

[Secret Chimp]

The car is not going to gain success in Europe. Nobody in Europe wants to buy a Cadillac.

[2o6]

The car is not going to gain success in Europe. Nobody in Europe wants to buy a Cadillac.

...because the product was wrong for the market. People used to say the same thing about Chevrolet as well as Hyundai/Kia.


Smaller engines, more focus on quality and drive.

[850CSi]

I wanna drive one, see what it's like.

[Galaxy]

...because the product was wrong for the market. People used to say the same thing about Chevrolet as well as Hyundai/Kia.


Smaller engines, more focus on quality and drive.

The product was not that "wrong." The A6, E class, 5er sell quite well. They were really just missing some diesel engines, and perhaps some interior upgrades here and there. The problem was hardly anyone knew that the company still existed. They had 4, or 4 dealers via some obscure import company from the Netherlands (that eventually went bankrupt) for all of Germany, and almost zero marketing. The only add I ever saw for a Cadillac here was in a print add in a car magazine. They really, really need some mega mainstream marketing. At least the dealer part seems to be improving. I just checked their website, they now have around ~30 dealers. Frankly,I could never understand why they were not simply bunched in with Opel. It is a shame because the CTS wagon is really a nice vehicle.

[sportyaccordy]

Nobody won a war by having juuuuuuuuuuust as much firepower as their enemy. Imagine if the 2002 was juuuuuuuuust as fun to drive as a Nova. Or the W123 were juuuuuuuuuuust as well built as a 1970s Cadillac. Or the Corolla was juuuuuuuuust as reliable as a Citation. German + Japanese auto marques would have went the way as the French in the US. So now Cadillac decides to seriously go to war with the Jerpanese (partially in the Germans home turf!!!!), and their hail mary play is 99% of what their competitors have to offer... in one metric.... while falling between short to downright deficient everywhere else. There are zero objective reasons for anyone to buy this over its competitors, and yes, I know new car buying is very emotional/subjective, but when operating basic functions of the car piss you off, you're not gonna win too many hearts.

I'm pissed off because GM had the chance to do it a third time, even aside the Euro crisis and with the full backing of the American taxpayer... and they still fucking blew it!!! The Malibu is an also ran too!!! These guys have been around for 100 years and they should have gone out of business 35 years ago.

[sportyaccordy]

The product was not that "wrong." The A6, E class, 5er sell quite well. They were really just missing some diesel engines, and perhaps some interior upgrades here and there. The problem was hardly anyone knew that the company still existed. They had 4, or 4 dealers via some obscure import company from the Netherlands (that eventually went bankrupt) for all of Germany, and almost zero marketing. The only add I ever saw for a Cadillac here was in a print add in a car magazine. They really, really need some mega mainstream marketing. At least the dealer part seems to be improving. I just checked their website, they now have around ~30 dealers. Frankly,I could never understand why they were not simply bunched in with Opel. It is a shame because the CTS wagon is really a nice vehicle.

In my super limited experience Europeans are very nationalist + brand biased. Even with a legitimately great car, at this point in the game GM is not making any inroads in the western European market. Hell their born and bred European brand, w/cars covering the full spectrum, is damn near on its way to bankruptcy... and these cars were designed + built specifically for the European market. Plus who is buying small executive cars in Europe anymore?

[2o6]

XTS also has CUE, and it's selling pretty well (meeting targets).

In my super limited experience Europeans are very nationalist + brand biased. Even with a legitimately great car, at this point in the game GM is not making any inroads in the western European market. Hell their born and bred European brand, w/cars covering the full spectrum, is damn near on its way to bankruptcy... and these cars were designed + built specifically for the European market. Plus who is buying small executive cars in Europe anymore?

Everyone is; it's the reason why the D-segment is evaporating in Europe.

Nobody won a war by having juuuuuuuuuuust as much firepower as their enemy. Imagine if the 2002 was juuuuuuuuust as fun to drive as a Nova. Or the W123 were juuuuuuuuuuust as well built as a 1970s Cadillac. Or the Corolla was juuuuuuuuust as reliable as a Citation. German + Japanese auto marques would have went the way as the French in the US. So now Cadillac decides to seriously go to war with the Jerpanese (partially in the Germans home turf!!!!), and their hail mary play is 99% of what their competitors have to offer... in one metric.... while falling between short to downright deficient everywhere else. There are zero objective reasons for anyone to buy this over its competitors, and yes, I know new car buying is very emotional/subjective, but when operating basic functions of the car piss you off, you're not gonna win too many hearts.

I'm pissed off because GM had the chance to do it a third time, even aside the Euro crisis and with the full backing of the American taxpayer... and they still fucking blew it!!! The Malibu is an also ran too!!! These guys have been around for 100 years and they should have gone out of business 35 years ago.

Chevrolet proper is still doing excellently; the little Spark is pretty much sold out. Cruze, Sonic and Malibu are moving decently. Production of Equinox is at 100% capacity; they do not have the models to sell to fleets (which is why Captiva Sport exists). Chevrolet is the fastest growing make in China and Europe. Buick is also doing very well.

XTS and CTS are still selling well, and ATS has been well reviewed despite being "not as good as 3-series" as you claim.

You can't say stuff like that, because it's flat out wrong. Arguably, GM has the most knowledge of the market  (Toyota is right behind them).

[2o6]

Opel's woes are very similar to GM of USA circa 2008; labor relations coupled with a shrinking market = no profit. It's going to take a bit of time to get things right. However, since the rest of GM is doing pretty well, they can afford for a little while to keep operating at a loss....Opel is valuable.



There's a reason why VW's cut production of the new Golf by over 100K units yearly; there's no one to buy their cars.

[2o6]

Besides, the ATS is far cheaper, especially when equipped. The BMW isn't as well equipped. To get a similar system to CUE in the BMW, it's over 3K.

[Galaxy]

In my super limited experience Europeans are very nationalist + brand biased. Even with a legitimately great car, at this point in the game GM is not making any inroads in the western European market. Hell their born and bred European brand, w/cars covering the full spectrum, is damn near on its way to bankruptcy... and these cars were designed + built specifically for the European market. Plus who is buying small executive cars in Europe anymore?

I would say that Europeans are more willing to pay more for a domestic then an import if the domestic is competitive. There is perhaps less of a tendency to penny pinch. Of course there was a backlash in Germany against Siemens consumer products because frankly they were not very good, plus the company is as corrupt as a Nigerian border guard.

Small executive sell quite well. If you consider cars like the A3, A4, 1er, 3er, A, C class in that category.

[Galaxy]

Opel's woes are very similar to GM of USA circa 2008; labor relations coupled with a shrinking market = no profit. It's going to take a bit of time to get things right. However, since the rest of GM is doing pretty well, they can afford for a little while to keep operating at a loss....Opel is valuable.



There's a reason why VW's cut production of the new Golf by over 100K units yearly; there's no one to buy their cars.

Looking at how aggressively GM is pushing Chevy in Europe I have come to the conclusion that if Chevy catches on, Opel is gone. At least from GM. Hmmm I wonder if Tata could use Opel to slot below Jaguar/Land Rover? Seems more logical then Fiat being interested in Opel as has been speculated.

[2o6]

Looking at how aggressively GM is pushing Chevy in Europe I have come to the conclusion that if Chevy catches on, Opel is gone. At least from GM. Hmmm I wonder if Tata could use Opel to slot below Jaguar/Land Rover? Seems more logical then Fiat being interested in Opel as has been speculated.

It seems like GM is almost purposely handicapping Chevy, though. Cruze (although good) isn't as nice as Astra, and quite possibly not even as nice as the USDM market car. (I've noticed EU Cruzes have a slightly worse interior). Opel still is a strong name, and although it's hemorrhaging money it still moves a lot of units.

[sportyaccordy]

XTS also has CUE, and it's selling pretty well (meeting targets).

In Europe?

And if not, how many of those XTSs are fleet sales? I seem them doing a lot of Wall St livery duty (really Park Ave but you get my drift)

Everyone is; it's the reason why the D-segment is evaporating in Europe.

Even through the recession? I will have to look. I know VW is having a great year, but I don't know if they are doing great in Europe.

Chevrolet proper is still doing excellently; the little Spark is pretty much sold out. Cruze, Sonic and Malibu are moving decently. Production of Equinox is at 100% capacity; they do not have the models to sell to fleets (which is why Captiva Sport exists). Chevrolet is the fastest growing make in China and Europe. Buick is also doing very well.

Chevy is the fastest growing marque in Europe? For real? There has to be more to this story. Did they not exist in Europe for a long time? Which Chevys, the rebadged Daewoos or the Malibus/Impalas?

And in any case, the ATS is a Cadillac

XTS and CTS are still selling well, and ATS has been well reviewed despite being "not as good as 3-series" as you claim.

Selling well compared to what? Definitely not the 7/5/3. I heard the ATS was expected to sell 60K/yr. We will see how close they come to that. I don't know how realistic current figures are- they could be way under, way over or skewed by season

You can't say stuff like that, because it's flat out wrong. Arguably, GM has the most knowledge of the market  (Toyota is right behind them).

Most knowledge of the market? Then why is Opel/Vauxhall on the brink? Toyota doesn't have much of a presence there either, outside maybe GB

[Galaxy]

It seems like GM is almost purposely handicapping Chevy, though. Cruze (although good) isn't as nice as Astra, and quite possibly not even as nice as the USDM market car. (I've noticed EU Cruzes have a slightly worse interior). Opel still is a strong name, and although it's hemorrhaging money it still moves a lot of units.

The Cruze is also ? 1000 less then an Astra though. What is Opel's role then? Semi premium? That works for VW, and perhaps Volvo. For everyone else it is a recipe for failure.

[cawimmer430]

Enthusiasts are really the only ones who actually comparatively shop; most people will "like the way it drives" and think it "looks good" and it will sell well.

Exactly. 

[sportyaccordy]

Non enthusiasts will competitively shop. Folks who read Consumer Reports for example do a shit ton of competitive shopping.

[Atomic]

Was very impressed with the ATS I checked out. The CUE system was inappropriate for a BMW rival and the radio volume control was literally useless except for the flawless secondary feature found on the steering wheel column. The CUE technology would not make or break a deal for me and I think most. If I was set on a Bimmer, nothing would pull me away from the 3-Series but I think middle America with the cash to buy a car in this segment would find the new Caddy ATS to be a lot of car for the money. BMW fans will not stray, as expected, IMO. Neither company should worry. Both have their very own bragging rights.

[TurboDan]

I wanted this car to win for the right reasons... but GM dun goofed AGAIN.

Huh? You were hating on this car before anyone in the world had driven it.

[sportyaccordy]

Huh? You were hating on this car before anyone in the world had driven it.

Nope... I have said from day one this car looks like a good effort and a good car... its just not the RIGHT car. People just don't seem to understand the distinction between the two

If I need penicillin and you bring me aspirin, it could be the best aspirin in the world, but its not what I need... GM needs something, Cadillac needs something, but its not the ATS. At least not how the ATS was designed/made.

[hotrodalex]

Then what is the right car? A DTS?

[sportyaccordy]

I don't know, but it should be something that fills a "high volume niche" that is currently unfilled, that also plays to current global economic conditions

It has to be heavy on style. Style moves cars. There are mainstream sedans with more style than the ATS, that shouldn't be the case. ATS isn't a 3 that can have a generic look and sell on brand/reputation.

Like I said before they need a "Chrysler 300" moment, but I don't mean that they need to make a Cadillac 300. They need a Lexus RX/ES moment (but not make those cars either). They need to create a new segment, essentially.

[Atomic]

One thing I did not expect from the ATS was a really decent (for its price) and exceptionally roomy interior for four consider the tidy dimensions. It felt more comfy in back than the CTS four door. It was problematic getting out, but considering my post MVA injuries and the vehicles's segment I was pleasantly surprised it was not worse and know that the entry and exist issue has to do with its size and that of its competition -- NOT one car vs. another.

[MexicoCityM3]

I don't know, but it should be something that fills a "high volume niche" that is currently unfilled, that also plays to current global economic conditions

It has to be heavy on style. Style moves cars. There are mainstream sedans with more style than the ATS, that shouldn't be the case. ATS isn't a 3 that can have a generic look and sell on brand/reputation.

Like I said before they need a "Chrysler 300" moment, but I don't mean that they need to make a Cadillac 300. They need a Lexus RX/ES moment (but not make those cars either). They need to create a new segment, essentially.

Sporty, that last post is pointy-haired-guy quality.

The ATS is fine, it seems to have beat the 3 on handling while losing out on a few aspects like gearbox or the CUE thing (I can't believe BMW is now winning comparos on the strength of iDrive  )

Why wouldn't Cadillac want to sell a competitive car in this extremely profitable entry-lux segment?

[MrH]

I don't know, but it should be something that fills a "high volume niche" that is currently unfilled, that also plays to current global economic conditions

Holy

So you're saying they needed to create a vehicle that will sell in huge volume, that people want, that fills a niche in the market that is currently unfilled?  Well, no. Fucking. Shit.

Why aren't you running GM?

[2o6]

I don't know, but it should be something that fills a "high volume niche" that is currently unfilled, that also plays to current global economic conditions

It has to be heavy on style. Style moves cars. There are mainstream sedans with more style than the ATS, that shouldn't be the case. ATS isn't a 3 that can have a generic look and sell on brand/reputation.

Like I said before they need a "Chrysler 300" moment, but I don't mean that they need to make a Cadillac 300. They need a Lexus RX/ES moment (but not make those cars either). They need to create a new segment, essentially.

ATS looks the 3-series look old, it's so much more modern looking inside and out. It's a very attractive car in person.


The Chrysler 300 is the only thing in Chrysler's portfolio at the moment, and upon introduction it wasn't really a credible threat to the Germans and Japanese (and arguably still isn't). Same crappy 2.7L and mediocre 3.5L from the Intrepid, and the interior really wasn't all that.


Besides, the current 300 (although nice) is a very different car from Cadillac. If a person doesn't want a 300, what else in Chrysler's portfolio do they buy? Chrysler 200 is crap (only barely competitive against regular midsizers, it can't compete with "Premium" offerings). The PT Cruiser? Even worse. The car you keep describing is the DTS, and it was replaced by the XTS. Although it moves decently, it will not set the world on fire in terms of sales, and it's totally wrong for anywhere else except the American market.


GM doesn't have a small Luxury car, a segment that is actually growing. Cadillac may seriously move some units in both the US and Europe. Did you miss the point how the European D-segment is evaporating, and instead consumers are buying entry level luxury cars instead? GM had no entry until now.

[Schadenfreude]

Honestly, if the CUE system is the only gripe people have about the car, then GM has done a good job. The customers who have the cars need to fill out the feedback cards they'll be sent when purchasing car we know what needs to be done to improve the vehicles themselves (and yes, I acknowledge that the CUE system could use some tweaks/improvements, much like iDrive did when it was first released).