New Skoda Octavia, cast in the same mold, arrives full of new features

[CALL_911]

Go on, then, name them.............

I think you'll find that one by one all the wagons that used to be sold in the US have been deleted and not replaced. The Elantra Touring was the most recent casualty, replaced by the i30 that you guys call the Elantra GT. No new Passat, Focus, Mazda 6, Corolla wagons for America, and you don't get the Cruze that was launched in the rest of the world in 2012. Even Audi and BMW limit your choices very much and Mercedes don't give you the C Class Estate either.

I didn't even realize the Elantra Touring was gone. I guess all you're left with then is the Matrix and Impreza. But you do have CUVs out the ass, which are plenty economical and serve the same purpose.

[Colin]

Matrix and Impreza are hatchbacks.

The only other true estate/wagon, I guess, is the Legacy/Outback, though this is a bigger car than the Jetta.

[2o6]

Matrix and Impreza are hatchbacks.

The only other true estate/wagon, I guess, is the Legacy/Outback, though this is a bigger car than the Jetta.

We only get the Outback, and no Legacy Wagon, so really not many other wagons at all.

[Madman]

We only get the Outback, and no Legacy Wagon, so really not many other wagons at all.

Other wagons available in America for the 2013 model year.....









I suppose we can call this a wagon, right?




And possibly this, too.




And this sort of counts, I guess.

[cawimmer430]

See? Not many wagon choices in the US. The Jetta TDI Wagon seems to be the only choice (unless I can get that E-Class Wagon in diesel form in the US) to suit my needs.

I don't need an SUV or a CUV, especially since I feel that there no economical engine options available for those types of cars in the US. No offense. 

[Raza]

Go on, then, name them.............

I think you'll find that one by one all the wagons that used to be sold in the US have been deleted and not replaced. The Elantra Touring was the most recent casualty, replaced by the i30 that you guys call the Elantra GT. No new Passat, Focus, Mazda 6, Corolla wagons for America, and you don't get the Cruze that was launched in the rest of the world in 2012. Even Audi and BMW limit your choices very much and Mercedes don't give you the C Class Estate either.

Audi recently dropped the A4 Avant in favor the Allroad.   

[CJ]

See? Not many wagon choices in the US. The Jetta TDI Wagon seems to be the only choice (unless I can get that E-Class Wagon in diesel form in the US) to suit my needs.

I don't need an SUV or a CUV, especially since I feel that there no economical engine options available for those types of cars in the US. No offense. 

[Raza]

See? Not many wagon choices in the US. The Jetta TDI Wagon seems to be the only choice (unless I can get that E-Class Wagon in diesel form in the US) to suit my needs.

I don't need an SUV or a CUV, especially since I feel that there no economical engine options available for those types of cars in the US. No offense. 

Why would you go for diesel in the US when the diesel in the E class wouldn't be that economical, diesel is harder to get, more expensive to purchase, and more expensive to fuel up?

I like diesels too, but diesel doesn't make much sense in the US. 

[2o6]

Why would you go for diesel in the US when the diesel in the E class wouldn't be that economical, diesel is harder to get, more expensive to purchase, and more expensive to fuel up?

I like diesels too, but diesel doesn't make much sense in the US.

They make sense, but IMO not in luxury cars. A Jetta TDI and 2.0T are roughly the same price, IIRC. And the TDI gets wayy better economy.

[Madman]

See? Not many wagon choices in the US. The Jetta TDI Wagon seems to be the only choice (unless I can get that E-Class Wagon in diesel form in the US) to suit my needs.

Oddly, Merc doesn't offer the BlueTEC turbodiesel in the E Class wagon over here.  It's strange because you can get it in the sedan.  Weirder still, EVERY new Jetta wagon I see has a TDI badge on the back.  You'd think Mercedes would want to give all those TDI Jetta wagon drivers something to step up to.

Americans can, however, choose an ML350 BlueTEC 4Matic, a GL350 BlueTEC 4Matic and, until recently, an R350 BlueTEC 4Matic.


Oh, and I forgot you can also now get the Audi A4 Allroad Quattro over here with 2.0T gasoline power.

[Raza]

They make sense, but IMO not in luxury cars. A Jetta TDI and 2.0T are roughly the same price, IIRC. And the TDI gets wayy better economy.

Well, the current Jetta wagon is still based on the MkV, so that's not really a fair comparison.  Let's put it all together and go back a few years.

In 2009, a Jetta TDI sedan retailed for $22,270.  A Jetta Wolfsburg (with the 2.0T) retailed at $21,345.  And the Wolfsburg was roughly 2 seconds faster to 60, rated at 21/31.  TDI was much better at fuel economy, yes, 30/41.  But, you're giving up performance. On a comparable performance level, the Jetta SE (not the base model, but the second trim) managed 21/30 with a base price of $20,095. 

So there's over a $2,000 difference for comparable performance.  EPA estimates a yearly fuel cost of $1750 for the TDI and $2050 for the 2.5SE.  So, yes, you save $300 a year on fuel, putting your break-even at 7.25 years. 

Estimated yearly fuel cost of a 2.0T is $2150, but the price difference is lower.  Break-even drops to 2.3125 years.  Much better, and well within the average length of car ownership.  But, if you're settling for the lower performance of the diesel, it makes much more sense to compare the TDI with the 2.5SE.  If you sell the car within 7 years, you're still ahead (barring things like differences in resale value). 

[2o6]

Well, the current Jetta wagon is still based on the MkV, so that's not really a fair comparison.  Let's put it all together and go back a few years.

In 2009, a Jetta TDI sedan retailed for $22,270.  A Jetta Wolfsburg (with the 2.0T) retailed at $21,345.  And the Wolfsburg was roughly 2 seconds faster to 60, rated at 21/31.  TDI was much better at fuel economy, yes, 30/41.  But, you're giving up performance. On a comparable performance level, the Jetta SE (not the base model, but the second trim) managed 21/30 with a base price of $20,095. 

So there's over a $2,000 difference for comparable performance.  EPA estimates a yearly fuel cost of $1750 for the TDI and $2050 for the 2.5SE.  So, yes, you save $300 a year on fuel, putting your break-even at 7.25 years. 

Estimated yearly fuel cost of a 2.0T is $2150, but the price difference is lower.  Break-even drops to 2.3125 years.  Much better, and well within the average length of car ownership.  But, if you're settling for the lower performance of the diesel, it makes much more sense to compare the TDI with the 2.5SE.  If you sell the car within 7 years, you're still ahead (barring things like differences in res
ale value).

Blah blah blah. Most don't think this way when buying a car.

[cawimmer430]

Why would you go for diesel in the US when the diesel in the E class wouldn't be that economical, diesel is harder to get, more expensive to purchase, and more expensive to fuel up?

I like diesels too, but diesel doesn't make much sense in the US.

A modern diesel is really fun to drive. Low-end torque and midrange acceleration surges are great and very usable in daily driving and you'll get better mileage than if you do these things with a comparable gasoline engine. When I worked for a Benz dealer I found the diesel E-Classes far more fun to drive than the gasoline versions. Diesel might be more expensive and hard to find in the US, but you also get greater range and have to stop less often for fill-ups. I guess it's a personal preference.

I think if I were to work in the US something like a Jetta TDI Wagon would be my only choice, or an Audi A4 Avant Allroad with the 2.0T engine.

Or - a used Mercedes 300TD Turbodiesel Wagon! 

[cawimmer430]

Oddly, Merc doesn't offer the BlueTEC turbodiesel in the E Class wagon over here.  It's strange because you can get it in the sedan.  Weirder still, EVERY new Jetta wagon I see has a TDI badge on the back.  You'd think Mercedes would want to give all those TDI Jetta wagon drivers something to step up to.

You guys really need more diesel/engine options. 

Americans can, however, choose an ML350 BlueTEC 4Matic, a GL350 BlueTEC 4Matic and, until recently, an R350 BlueTEC 4Matic.

From what I hear those are in higher demand than the gasoline-powered versions, or at least keep their residuals better.

Oh, and I forgot you can also now get the Audi A4 Allroad Quattro over here with 2.0T gasoline power.

Not a bad choice. Always liked that A4 Avant generation and the Allroad has the added benefit of AWD and slightly higher ground clearance. To bad it's not available with a great TDI in the US.

[Raza]

Blah blah blah. Most don't think this way when buying a car.

Ah, when presented with fact, you resort to "the facts don't matter."  I win.

[Raza]

A modern diesel is really fun to drive. Low-end torque and midrange acceleration surges are great and very usable in daily driving and you'll get better mileage than if you do these things with a comparable gasoline engine. When I worked for a Benz dealer I found the diesel E-Classes far more fun to drive than the gasoline versions. Diesel might be more expensive and hard to find in the US, but you also get greater range and have to stop less often for fill-ups. I guess it's a personal preference.

I think if I were to work in the US something like a Jetta TDI Wagon would be my only choice, or an Audi A4 Avant Allroad with the 2.0T engine.

Like I said, I have nothing against diesel.  But if you look at my previous post, to buy the TDI over the 2.5 I5 is to spend a lot more money--that it will take you over 7 years to get back in fuel costs. 

[2o6]

Ah, when presented with fact, you resort to "the facts don't matter."  I win.

I know what you are, but what am I? 


I just think doing too in depth of a cost analysis on a car is self defeating, most people buy addons and options anyways, so the math would be different. If thats the case, why is there more powerful engine options on mamy cars?

[Raza]

I know what you are, but what am I? 


I just think doing too in depth of a cost analysis on a car is self defeating, most people buy addons and options anyways, so the math would be different. If thats the case, why is there more powerful engine options on mamy cars?

Personal preference is one thing.  If you prefer the feel of a diesel over a gasoline engine, that's fine.  But when the argument is fuel efficiency, the argument is that a fuel efficient car saves money, but if you're paying a premium for the fuel efficiency, you lose the logical argument. 

Now if you have an irrational fear of gas stations and try to limit your exposure to them by getting a fuel efficient car, that's fine too. 

But posited that diesels don't make sense in the US because they cost too much to purchase and run.  And I am completely right. 

As far as options go, I used the SE instead of the S, assuming that standard features would be comparable and any features added would be comparably priced, meaning the comparative price difference would be the same.

[cawimmer430]

Like I said, I have nothing against diesel.  But if you look at my previous post, to buy the TDI over the 2.5 I5 is to spend a lot more money--that it will take you over 7 years to get back in fuel costs. 

Owning a diesel-powered car is also more expensive in Europe, yet they're very popular because they provide more range than a comparable gas-powered car (less fill-ups) and because their performance is completely sufficient for everyday driving.

Diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline here, but the automotive taxes on diesel cars are more expensive. I pay 135 Euros a year for the 118i. A 118d costs 309 Euros a year in automotive taxes. All diesel cars in Europe are more heavily taxed than their gasoline counterparts, yet they're still more popular.

On some cars, owning a diesel car will actually be cheaper overall despite the higher taxes. Someone who drives a Mercedes GL63 AMG versus someone who drives a GL350 Bluetec will be spending more money on fuel for example if both are driven the exact same mileage per year.

[Raza]

Owning a diesel-powered car is also more expensive in Europe, yet they're very popular because they provide more range than a comparable gas-powered car (less fill-ups) and because their performance is completely sufficient for everyday driving.

Diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline here, but the automotive taxes on diesel cars are more expensive. I pay 135 Euros a year for the 118i. A 118d costs 309 Euros a year in automotive taxes. All diesel cars in Europe are more heavily taxed than their gasoline counterparts, yet they're still more popular.

On some cars, owning a diesel car will actually be cheaper overall despite the higher taxes. Someone who drives a Mercedes GL63 AMG versus someone who drives a GL350 Bluetec will be spending more money on fuel for example if both are driven the exact same mileage per year.

Come on, keep your comparisons realistic.  What does a GL63 cost compared to a GL350 Bluetec?  At the price of a GL63, do you think the owner really cares about gas mileage?

[Colin]

The diesel v petrol debate is interesting.

In UK (unlike the rest of Europe) the fuel is more expensive - typically about 10p a litre more. The car costs more to buy, but has better fuel economy, but it is by no means clear cut that a diesel will also be cheaper TCO. Indeed for cars of Fiesta size, it almost certainly will not be, or the break even period will be so many years that people will not keep the car that long. The fact that over 50% of people still buy diesels, believing that they are cheaper shows that people do not always do a rational assessment, but they can be influenced to do what they believe to be true, based on half truths.

That said, the average family hatch is now in almost all cases a much better driving proposition as a diesel, as the petrol ones have all been slugged with CO2 official figure reducing gearing that makes them god-awful to drive, whereas the only penalty with the diesel is the slightly rattly start up, but the surge of torque just when you most need it on the road more than makes up for it. This argument does not generally apply to sporting/performance cars. 

[cawimmer430]

Come on, keep your comparisons realistic.  What does a GL63 cost compared to a GL350 Bluetec?  At the price of a GL63, do you think the owner really cares about gas mileage?

True. Someone who buys a GL63 AMG or GL500 in Europe won't care about fuel economy, or they simply won't drive much so their fuel bills are equally of no concern. The GL350 Bluetec, however, is still the most popular GL in Europe as it combines good fuel economy, range and relatively cheap (in this class of car) running costs. In fact if you don't have a diesel engine option for your SUV in Europe, don't expect it to sell. 

But back on topic, owning a diesel car in Europe is expensive. People just believe there are more benefits to owning a diesel car and are willing to pay the extra taxes associated with them.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Oh, and I forgot you can also now get the Audi A4 Allroad Quattro over here with 2.0T gasoline power.

You guys really need more diesel/engine options. 


From what I hear those are in higher demand than the gasoline-powered versions, or at least keep their residuals better.


Not a bad choice. Always liked that A4 Avant generation and the Allroad has the added benefit of AWD and slightly higher ground clearance. To bad it's not available with a great TDI in the US.

I have mixed feelings about the A4 Allroad. I definitely like it, but unlike the last Allroad it's not exactly a step up over the base A4 Avant. It doesn't have a slick air suspension or a better engine, just a different style and a bit more ground clearance. The previous Allroad had more to offer over the base A6 Avant. Of course, Audi doesn't sell the A4 Avant here anymore now that the Allroad is on sale here, but the principle stands.

[CALL_911]

On the upside, these new allroads won't be plagued with the same air suspension problems those A6 allroads had.

[cawimmer430]

I have mixed feelings about the A4 Allroad. I definitely like it, but unlike the last Allroad it's not exactly a step up over the base A4 Avant. It doesn't have a slick air suspension or a better engine, just a different style and a bit more ground clearance. The previous Allroad had more to offer over the base A6 Avant. Of course, Audi doesn't sell the A4 Avant here anymore now that the Allroad is on sale here, but the principle stands.

Did the previous Allroad sell in large numbers? Probably not. My guess is that Audi is just offering it in the US for the sake of offering it and giving Subaru some half-hearted competition.

The Allroad in Europe is far more competitive and can be better equipped. There's even a Passat "Allroad" here and even a Peugeot 508 "Allroad".

[Raza]

Did the previous Allroad sell in large numbers? Probably not. My guess is that Audi is just offering it in the US for the sake of offering it and giving Subaru some half-hearted competition.

The Allroad in Europe is far more competitive and can be better equipped. There's even a Passat "Allroad" here and even a Peugeot 508 "Allroad".

Subaru isn't even on Audi's radar, let alone considered competition.