C7 Corvette

[r0tor]

Yah the Z06 is a marketing exercise and a prosthetic penis for most of the folks buying it. Folks who can legit afford six figure toys who want to do serious track days regularly have better options IMO. "Track day specials" are past the point of absurdity IMO. This whole overheating debacle is proof of that.

Why buy a Z07 if your not going to a track?  Oh that's right, to be a poser - which is what the car is in the realm of real sports cars.

[GoCougs]

Why buy a Z07 if your not going to a track?  Oh that's right, to be a poser - which is what the car is in the realm of real sports cars.

Sports cars are not track cars. In terms of acceleration, grip and handling, you have to get super aggro (Z/28, GT3) to get better than a Z06.

Anyone who spends any material amount of time at the track is dumping money into a project car - they aren't buying a factory new car (ergo, only a couple of legit track cars are available new).

[12,000 RPM]

Why buy a Z07 if your not going to a track?  Oh that's right, to be a poser - which is what the car is in the realm of real sports cars.

Cars cant be posers, only people can. If the goal is low track times or eye peeling performance there are a truckload of Corvettes on the road better suited for the job IMO. Especially since the idea of GM covering any kind of track related equipment failure under warranty is a pipe dream

No, like I said this thing, like the 08-09 GT-Rs that had the warranty voiding launch control, are just marketing exercises and dick extenders. They generate the press times, but they are either painfully boring to drive at less than 9.9/10ths (GT-R) or underengineered and self-protecting to the point that with enough laps you will be at the pace of a base C7 on slicks (Z06/7). Whats the point?

[SJ_GTI]

I think you guys are going overboard on the 86F comment.

He said it is designed to run at full tilt at 86F for a full tank of gas (essentially indefinitely). It isn't like the car cannot be used at higher temps, but the risk of overheating goes up.

I would be curious about other companies' approaches. To me, when putting out a performance car the above seems reasonable. 

I think the C7 overheating has simply become a meme on this forum, for better or worse. Which is weird because up until the C7 the Vette seemed like a pretty well respected car on this forum. It is becoming annoying to read anything about the Vette now though because of the trolling on this topic.

[GoCougs]

Actually, a hi-po car can burn through a full tank of gas in well less than an hour at full tilt. Add in safety margin to prevent running out of gas on the track and say a 15 gallon tank you're probably looking at ~30 minutes.

Oh, and haters love to hate.

[12,000 RPM]

I think you guys are going overboard on the 86F comment.

He said it is designed to run at full tilt at 86F for a full tank of gas (essentially indefinitely). It isn't like the car cannot be used at higher temps, but the risk of overheating goes up.

I would be curious about other companies' approaches. To me, when putting out a performance car the above seems reasonable. 

I think the C7 overheating has simply become a meme on this forum, for better or worse. Which is weird because up until the C7 the Vette seemed like a pretty well respected car on this forum. It is becoming annoying to read anything about the Vette now though because of the trolling on this topic.

Well the previous cars didn't have these problems. Or they were better covered up. In any case I still like the C7.

[hotrodalex]

Cars cant be posers, only people can. If the goal is low track times or eye peeling performance there are a truckload of Corvettes on the road better suited for the job IMO. Especially since the idea of GM covering any kind of track related equipment failure under warranty is a pipe dream

No, like I said this thing, like the 08-09 GT-Rs that had the warranty voiding launch control, are just marketing exercises and dick extenders. They generate the press times, but they are either painfully boring to drive at less than 9.9/10ths (GT-R) or underengineered and self-protecting to the point that with enough laps you will be at the pace of a base C7 on slicks (Z06/7). Whats the point?

+1

[GoCougs]

Well the previous cars didn't have these problems. Or they were better covered up. In any case I still like the C7.

The previous cars weren't as capable - more power, better grip, traction, down force, etc. = more power into the track = more heat.

[MX793]

Only if it's a lower design parameter than other manufacturers.

I asked a co-worker, who used to work at Ford and whose father was a Ford engine/powertrain engineer (for most if not all of his career) what Ford typically designed/tested to.  He said when he was there, Ford would design their vehicles to operate at somewhere around 110F (he couldn't remember the exact number, but knew it was no lower than 105F).  They'd test them by running the engine under moderate to heavy load in those conditions to ensure nothing overheated either in a temperature chamber on a dyno or by driving a laden vehicle up a long grade at a desert test center.

From my own experience designing outdoor equipment, you design your equipment to run normally at all temperatures that may be typically encountered wherever it might be used.  That's just plain good sense.  So for a product intended for use anywhere in the US, that means it has to work everywhere from an Arizona summer to an Alaskan winter.  Designing for 86F when much, if not most, of the region you're selling that product in regularly sees hotter than that is poor engineering.

[r0tor]

Sports cars are not track cars. In terms of acceleration, grip and handling, you have to get super aggro (Z/28, GT3) to get better than a Z06.

Anyone who spends any material amount of time at the track is dumping money into a project car - they aren't buying a factory new car (ergo, only a couple of legit track cars are available new).

Why offer a Z07 package then with shit tons of down force and drag if it shouldn't be put on a track?

Why be a corvette fanboi and say the corvette is such a bargain because its tons cheaper then a GT3 or GT-R when it can't pull the same duty a well engineered car can?

And since you mentioned GT3, it was made to be a track car.

[FoMoJo]

I asked a co-worker, who used to work at Ford and whose father was a Ford engine/powertrain engineer (for most if not all of his career) what Ford typically designed/tested to.  He said when he was there, Ford would design their vehicles to operate at somewhere around 110F (he couldn't remember the exact number, but knew it was no lower than 105F).  They'd test them by running the engine under moderate to heavy load in those conditions to ensure nothing overheated either in a temperature chamber on a dyno or by driving a laden vehicle up a long grade at a desert test center.

Fits with the testing done on the 3.5 EcoBoost.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

The Corvette is an American Icon. I don't see the issue with the C7, the corvette has had a long history of winning on the track and breaking on the street. This ECU thing is just what the C7 boys have to put up with, while the C6 head dropped valves and the C5 had bad springs(valve).

It's just another step in a long running tradition.

[MrH]

Also, it's 86 degrees, driven by a professional driver.  Let's stop pretending we can keep a car as capable as a Z06 on boil like a pro can.

[hotrodalex]

Also, it's 86 degrees, driven by a professional driver.  Let's stop pretending we can keep a car as capable as a Z06 on boil like a pro can.

For over an hour.

15 minutes of go carting is enough to wear me out.

[hotrodalex]

I asked a co-worker, who used to work at Ford and whose father was a Ford engine/powertrain engineer (for most if not all of his career) what Ford typically designed/tested to.  He said when he was there, Ford would design their vehicles to operate at somewhere around 110F (he couldn't remember the exact number, but knew it was no lower than 105F).  They'd test them by running the engine under moderate to heavy load in those conditions to ensure nothing overheated either in a temperature chamber on a dyno or by driving a laden vehicle up a long grade at a desert test center.

From my own experience designing outdoor equipment, you design your equipment to run normally at all temperatures that may be typically encountered wherever it might be used.  That's just plain good sense.  So for a product intended for use anywhere in the US, that means it has to work everywhere from an Arizona summer to an Alaskan winter.  Designing for 86F when much, if not most, of the region you're selling that product in regularly sees hotter than that is poor engineering.

Those tests are a little bit different, and may have been a part of GM's testing as well. The 86F was the track day testing temperature goal.

[MrH]

For over an hour.

15 minutes of go carting is enough to wear me out.

  Exactly.

One lap of the Ring had me sweaty and needing a break every time.  I can't imagine doing lap after lap like that.

[Tave]

What relevance is the weight of the bag compared to the weight of the contents, unless you are specifically considering the material and construction of the bag? With the information given, one cannot determine whether or not the bag is a suitable container. In this case, where the goal is to overflow a container with feces, it would be much more appropriate to specify units of volume. For example: "GM put ten-gallons of shit in a five-gallon bucket."

d00d that killed me

[r0tor]

For over an hour.

15 minutes of go carting is enough to wear me out.

Try doing a 3hr enduro sometime... yeesh

[Tave]

I think you guys are going overboard on the 86F comment.

He said it is designed to run at full tilt at 86F for a full tank of gas (essentially indefinitely). It isn't like the car cannot be used at higher temps, but the risk of overheating goes up.

I would be curious about other companies' approaches. To me, when putting out a performance car the above seems reasonable. 

I think the C7 overheating has simply become a meme on this forum, for better or worse. Which is weird because up until the C7 the Vette seemed like a pretty well respected car on this forum. It is becoming annoying to read anything about the Vette now though because of the trolling on this topic.

Yeah we've    it to death. Every car has problems. This one was a little unfortunate press-wise given the nature of the model.

[Tave]

^^^Remember the first 997 Turbo had an "overboost" feature where it made extra power for ~10 sec spurts? It's all in the marketing.

[hotrodalex]

The interior is better than last generations so haters had to find something else to rage about.

[MexicoCityM3]

^^^Remember the first 997 Turbo had an "overboost" feature where it made extra power for ~10 sec spurts? It's all in the marketing.

My 1M has that as well. On track it will basically never do it because temps. But it still pulls at a constant level for a whole session. So no missed expectations there.

[FoMoJo]

^^^Remember the first 997 Turbo had an "overboost" feature where it made extra power for ~10 sec spurts? It's all in the marketing.

Bonus vs. penalty.  Smart marketing.

[r0tor]

Also, it's 86 degrees, driven by a professional driver.  Let's stop pretending we can keep a car as capable as a Z06 on boil like a pro can.

Fairly certain in germany cars can go at a fairly high pace for a fairly prolonged time.  Fairly certain the Z06's competition (and much more mundane german cars) are designed to withstand such conditions...

[hotrodalex]

Fairly certain in germany cars can go at a fairly high pace for a fairly prolonged time.  Fairly certain the Z06's competition (and much more mundane german cars) are designed to withstand such conditions...

Like the autobahn? Any car can do that. Constant load isn't the issue, it's track racing and constant high rpm acceleration.

[MrH]

Fairly certain in germany cars can go at a fairly high pace for a fairly prolonged time.  Fairly certain the Z06's competition (and much more mundane german cars) are designed to withstand such conditions...

Really?  What are the temperature specs these mundane German cars are being designed to?

[MX793]

Most of the racetracks in the US are in regions that regularly see well more than 86F.  Randy Pobst got the C7 to overheat on a track on a ~86F day.  You won't need to drive the car nearly as hard to get it that hot on track that's 20 degrees hotter, which you will certainly see at tracks like COTA, Daytona, Sebring, Miller, Sonoma, Willow Springs, Road Atlanta, NOLA, and others.

It's very apparent that if 86F with a professional driver was their target, they achieved that target with little to no margin to tolerate anything beyond that.  There are reports of professional drivers experiencing overheating at temperatures near that (and at well short that a tank's worth of lapping), and amateur drivers running into issues at temperatures above that mark.  MCM3 noted that the C7 Corvettes at COTA last time he was there all overheated.  If previous Vettes were designed to this same standard, they obviously had significantly more margin beyond that because I don't recall hearing/reading about temperature issues being quite as widespread.  I certainly can't recall a single major publication having their test cars overheat in a handful of laps when running them through their paces at Streets of Willow or Road Atlanta.  Any road car will start getting hot in 8 or 10 laps on a hot day, but 2 or 3 when other high performance road cars are able to go several times that many before needing to cool down?  That's not a good sign.

[r0tor]

Like the autobahn? Any car can do that. Constant load isn't the issue, it's track racing and constant high rpm acceleration.

Fairly certain if your ripping down the autobahn its going to be at a high rpm with a fair amount of engine load and be as bad or worse then a track where you have areas with little to no engine load between relatively short bursts

[hotrodalex]

Fairly certain if your ripping down the autobahn its going to be at a high rpm with a fair amount of engine load and be as bad or worse then a track where you have areas with little to no engine load between relatively short bursts

High speed cruising = lots of cooling too.

[r0tor]

Really?  What are the temperature specs these mundane German cars are being designed to?

50 deg C