C7 Corvette

[12,000 RPM]

They're probably still soured over their problematic long-termer.

That shit was unacceptable

[MX793]

They're probably still soured over their problematic long-termer.

I was thinking the same thing.

As special as the GT350 is, the Vette is a hell of a complete package.  Ignoring dealer markup, the Mustang is a decent chunk of change cheaper, though.  Over 10% cheaper for a GT350 with Tech Package versus a 1LT Z51 w/ MagneRide.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

That shit was unacceptable

No excuses! Yes it was! At the same time I wonder how hard C&D is on these cars!

[FlatBlackCaddy]

You say no excuses then try to cast doubt and invalidate their experience by attempting to blame them for some sort of excessive use or abuse.

Gm fucked up, again. It's not the first time and far from the last.

[MX793]

No excuses! Yes it was! At the same time I wonder how hard C&D is on these cars!

Failure modes that could not be attributed to abuse or hard use:

-8" touch screen shorted out on surrounding trim at <1000 miles (manufacturing defect)
-Blown engine (caused by metal burrs not cleaned out after machining or a burr in the oil filter threads that wasn't cleaned out, both were identified as potential causes)
-Defective side airbag and seat upholstery (the latter likely caused by the replacement of the former)
-Failed environmental control module
-Failed starter motor
-Leaking axle seals

[CaminoRacer]

Still worth it. Z06 is King of the Road.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

You say no excuses then try to cast doubt and invalidate their experience by attempting to blame them for some sort of excessive use or abuse.

I'm not casting doubt! I honestly wonder how hard they are on the test cars! We all know people don't take care of cars that they DIDN'T Pay for like they would a car that they spent their own money on! I'm pretty sure 99% of people in rental cars don't treat them like their own. Thats the only case I'm making! Like I said there's no excuse for all the problems that Vette gave them.......

Failure modes that could not be attributed to abuse or hard use:

-8" touch screen shorted out on surrounding trim at <1000 miles (manufacturing defect)
-Blown engine (caused by metal burrs not cleaned out after machining or a burr in the oil filter threads that wasn't cleaned out, both were identified as potential causes)
-Defective side airbag and seat upholstery (the latter likely caused by the replacement of the former)
-Failed environmental control module
-Failed starter motor
-Leaking axle seals

See reply above! No excuses for that many problems on a new OR used 2014 Vette.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Still worth it. Z06 is King of the Road.

Yes it is for the same Coin as a loaded GTS or GT4 Cayman!

[Byteme]

C&D just picked the GT350 over a Z51 C7 in the Feb issue! Even thought the Vette out performed the Stang they picked it over the Vette because it felt more special and had better steering!

Bigger out and out performance numbers are just one factor in what makes the better car. 

Besides better steering add a better shifter, brake feel, "good ride", sublime body control".  Not to mention better driver comfort, ergonomics, and interior and exterior styling. It might not generate the numbers a corvette does, but it's a better overall package, especially where most people use their car most of the time; on public roads.

[GoCougs]

Remove the Mustang badging and then see C&D say how "special" the car feels . The GT350 is a good package but the Corvette is simply a much more expensive performance car.

And ouch on those GT350 accel numbers - 0-60 and 1/4 mile times exactly match C&D's test of a fully loaded 2016 Camaro 2SS with M/T. 54 mph in 1st and 79 mph in 2nd with an 8,250 rpm motor, no VVL and only a moderate power/weight ratio is gonna be a tough go. A sixth gen Camaro Z28 w/the (10-year-old) LS7 will be well out in front. Ford should have spent flat plane crank dev $$ on VVL.

[12,000 RPM]

Remove the Mustang badging and then see C&D say how "special" the car feels . The GT350 is a good package but the Corvette is simply a much more expensive performance car.

And ouch on those GT350 accel numbers - 0-60 and 1/4 mile times exactly match C&D's test of a fully loaded 2016 Camaro 2SS with M/T. 54 mph in 1st and 79 mph in 2nd with an 8,250 rpm motor, no VVL and only a moderate power/weight ratio is gonna be a tough go. A sixth gen Camaro Z28 w/the (10-year-old) LS7 will be well out in front. Ford should have spent flat plane crank dev $$ on VVL.

Werent u the guy who said the GT4's unusually long, acceleration-blunting gearing was optimized "for the track"? I still want to know what track. In any case, I am finding it bizarre that you are now dumping on the GT350, which is just as "track focused", for having similarly long gearing. By focusing on acceleration numbers you unsurprisingly completely miss the point of the GT350. If someone needs an automotive penis enlargement they can get the Super Snake package. For someone who wants a spiritual successor to something like the E46 M3 CSL, there is the GT350/R. I would not be so quick to claim victory for GM here. When the LTx can hold itself together for a pass or lap it is indeed faster, but all the woes of C&D's long term Stingray and all the problems of the Z06 don't look too good. The LSx/LTx are a lot of things.... good things.... but I don't think anyone could call the hi po LSx and any of the LTx engines "reliable". Calm down.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Bigger out and out performance numbers are just one factor in what makes the better car. 

Besides better steering add a better shifter, brake feel, "good ride", sublime body control".  Not to mention better driver comfort, ergonomics, and interior and exterior styling. It might not generate the numbers a corvette does, but it's a better overall package, especially where most people use their car most of the time; on public roads.

GOOD RIDE? LOL!!! If these were Sports SEDANS I'd agree with you but the cover of this issue reads "Mustang Beats Corvette" and "America Meet Your New Sports Car King!" all this for a car that didn't win a SINGLE performance category! The C7 handed the GT it's ass with 66 LESS horse power! C&D also said if they hadn't driven both cars back to back they wouldn't have noticed the differance in steering feel!

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Werent u the guy who said the GT4's unusually long, acceleration-blunting gearing was optimized "for the track"? I still want to know what track. In any case, I am finding it bizarre that you are now dumping on the GT350, which is just as "track focused", for having similarly long gearing. By focusing on acceleration numbers you unsurprisingly completely miss the point of the GT350. If someone needs an automotive penis enlargement they can get the Super Snake package. For someone who wants a spiritual successor to something like the E46 M3 CSL, there is the GT350/R. I would not be so quick to claim victory for GM here. When the LTx can hold itself together for a pass or lap it is indeed faster, but all the woes of C&D's long term Stingray and all the problems of the Z06 don't look too good. The LSx/LTx are a lot of things.... good things.... but I don't think anyone could call the hi po LSx and any of the LTx engines "reliable". Calm down.

Lets not act like every other LT1/4 has blown up! Not defending the problems but we all know some of these Vettes don't live easy lives!

[MX793]

GOOD RIDE? LOL!!! If these were Sports SEDANS I'd agree with you but the cover of this issue reads "Mustang Beats Corvette" and "America Meet Your New Sports Car King!" all this for a car that didn't win a SINGLE performance category! The C7 handed the GT it's ass with 66 LESS horse power! C&D also said if they hadn't driven both cars back to back they wouldn't have noticed the differance in steering feel!

A greatness of a "sports car" is not measured by the numbers it puts up.  The Miata is arguably one of greatest of the breed, and it, particularly its older generations, will get smoked by most family sedans.  The Boxster is another fine example that, again, will get left in the dust by many other vehicles, including some non-sports cars.

[MX793]

Werent u the guy who said the GT4's unusually long, acceleration-blunting gearing was optimized "for the track"? I still want to know what track. In any case, I am finding it bizarre that you are now dumping on the GT350, which is just as "track focused", for having similarly long gearing. By focusing on acceleration numbers you unsurprisingly completely miss the point of the GT350. If someone needs an automotive penis enlargement they can get the Super Snake package. For someone who wants a spiritual successor to something like the E46 M3 CSL, there is the GT350/R. I would not be so quick to claim victory for GM here. When the LTx can hold itself together for a pass or lap it is indeed faster, but all the woes of C&D's long term Stingray and all the problems of the Z06 don't look too good. The LSx/LTx are a lot of things.... good things.... but I don't think anyone could call the hi po LSx and any of the LTx engines "reliable". Calm down.

Indeed, the GT350 is not a drag car.  Its hardware speaks clearly to that.  Tall gearing in the lower gears optimized for acceleration from a roll rather than from a standing start, the latter occurring effectively never on a circuit.  Also the presence of a Torsen type differential, which is ill-suited for drag strip work for several reasons, ranging from the way it is designed to work to its tolerance for harsh driveline shocks incurred during a hard launch.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

A greatness of a "sports car" is not measured by the numbers it puts up.  The Miata is arguably one of greatest of the breed, and it, particularly its older generations, will get smoked by most family sedans.  The Boxster is another fine example that, again, will get smoked by many other vehicles, including some non-sports cars.

True! But can one car be crowned the new SPOTRS CAR KING when It clearly can't outperform the previous champ? Ride quality and shifter feel shouldn't be enough to dethrone the Vette. It's not like the Vette has the shifter out of a '84 Fiero or rides like a '67 Cobra....

[Payman]

A greatness of a "sports car" is not measured by the numbers it puts up.  The Miata is arguably one of greatest of the breed, and it, particularly its older generations, will get smoked by most family sedans.  The Boxster is another fine example that, again, will get smoked by many other vehicles, including some non-sports cars.

Yep, same with the VW GTi. It's the whole package. I love the Stingray, but it has some serious issues that may/may not have been addressed yet. I hope getting beaten by a Mustang wakes up GM to improve the 'Vette in terms of comfort, dynamics, and reliability.

[Byteme]

GOOD RIDE? LOL!!! If these were Sports SEDANS I'd agree with you but the cover of this issue reads "Mustang Beats Corvette" and "America Meet Your New Sports Car King!" all this for a car that didn't win a SINGLE performance category! The C7 handed the GT it's ass with 66 LESS horse power! C&D also said if they hadn't driven both cars back to back they wouldn't have noticed the differance in steering feel!

An F1 car or Le mans prototype car will put down terrific numbers as well and hand the C7 it's ass in most performance categories.  That doesn't mean they are the better cars. 

WRT steering feel, a comparison test brings out those subtle differences.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

An F1 car or Le mans prototype car will put down terrific numbers as well and hand the C7 it's ass in most performance categories.  That doesn't mean they are the better cars. 

If the C7 was a One Trick Pony this would make sense......

[12,000 RPM]

I wouldn't quite call this a win for Ford yet. But I like Ford's approach vs Chevy's. OK the Rustang isn't the dynamic bench racing king. But when the pen hits the paper I know which of the two I would rather actually spend my money on and rely on to get me from point A to point B without incident. Bragging rights don't mean shit when you're waiting on the side of the road for a tow truck.

Plus the GT 350's gearing is easily easily easily fixable. A ~4.2-4.4 FD would make the gear ratios more bench racer friendly and allow for more legal winding out of the motor. It's probably the 3.73 it is for emissions and fuel economy. Regular Mustang's issues are easily fixable as well. GM's cars, not so much

[GoCougs]

Werent u the guy who said the GT4's unusually long, acceleration-blunting gearing was optimized "for the track"? I still want to know what track. In any case, I am finding it bizarre that you are now dumping on the GT350, which is just as "track focused", for having similarly long gearing. By focusing on acceleration numbers you unsurprisingly completely miss the point of the GT350. If someone needs an automotive penis enlargement they can get the Super Snake package. For someone who wants a spiritual successor to something like the E46 M3 CSL, there is the GT350/R. I would not be so quick to claim victory for GM here. When the LTx can hold itself together for a pass or lap it is indeed faster, but all the woes of C&D's long term Stingray and all the problems of the Z06 don't look too good. The LSx/LTx are a lot of things.... good things.... but I don't think anyone could call the hi po LSx and any of the LTx engines "reliable". Calm down.

Sigh, your Internetry is so awful I don't even know why I bother any more (and probably won't, so best that you revel in this meaty beat down).

More time spent shifting = less time putting power to the track. Show me a track focused M/T-equipped car and I'll show you a car with tall(ish) gearing, with the most extreme example probably the Z06 - 65 in 1st and 95 in 2nd. The GT4 has a much less advantageous power/weight ratio than the GT350 and even with similarly tall gears, is as quick or quicker than the GT350.

Money blown on a lofty red line doesn't do a whole lot if nets you a slower car and thusly Ford continues its legacy of less-than-stellar engine development. Sure, it's nifty to talk about flat plane cranks but it's a bit awkward that the GT350 is no quicker than the far cheaper Camaro SS with a pooprod motor and that it otherwise can't outgun a smaller/lighter/simpler 10-year-old pooprod motor.

[SVT666]

The tall lower gears is for track use since it reduces the number of shifts. Shifting costs time...at least that's how Porsche explained it with regards to the GT4. Since I will never take the car on a track, but I want that engine, suspension, body work, and noise, I want the GT350 with more aggressive gearing. IME, different transmission gear ratios is the way to do this, not with super aggressive rear end ratios like Sporty suggests.

[SVT666]

Sigh, your Internetry is so awful I don't even know why I bother any more (and probably won't, so best that you revel in this meaty beat down).

More time spent shifting = less time putting power to the track. Show me a track focused M/T-equipped car and I'll show you a car with tall(ish) gearing, with the most extreme example probably the Z06 - 65 in 1st and 95 in 2nd. The GT4 has a much less advantageous power/weight ratio than the GT350 and even with similarly tall gears, is as quick or quicker than the GT350.

Money blown on a lofty red line doesn't do a whole lot if nets you a slower car and thusly Ford continues its legacy of less-than-stellar engine development. Sure, it's nifty to talk about flat plane cranks but it's a bit awkward that the GT350 is no quicker than the far cheaper Camaro SS with a pooprod motor and that it otherwise can't outgun a smaller/lighter/simpler 10-year-old pooprod motor.

If the GT350 had transmission ratios like the regular GT, it would annihilate the SS in a straight line. But that's not what this car is about.

[12,000 RPM]

Sigh, your Internetry is so awful I don't even know why I bother any more (and probably won't, so best that you revel in this meaty beat down).

More time spent shifting = less time putting power to the track. Show me a track focused M/T-equipped car and I'll show you a car with tall(ish) gearing, with the most extreme example probably the Z06 - 65 in 1st and 95 in 2nd. The GT4 has a much less advantageous power/weight ratio than the GT350 and even with similarly tall gears, is as quick or quicker than the GT350.

Money blown on a lofty red line doesn't do a whole lot if nets you a slower car and thusly Ford continues its legacy of less-than-stellar engine development. Sure, it's nifty to talk about flat plane cranks but it's a bit awkward that the GT350 is no quicker than the far cheaper Camaro SS with a pooprod motor and that it otherwise can't outgun a smaller/lighter/simpler 10-year-old pooprod motor.

Of course you will continue to bother, as you don't have the discipline to restrain yourself or the intelligence to beat me. You can't even keep your stories straight. In the Z06 thread you were talking about how boosted cars can't be track cars, now you are citing the boosted Z06's gearing as a model of how track cars are geared. What track car have you driven? Do you watch any professional motorsports? From auto-x to F1 track cars are geared to maximize average power over the course of the lap. That means not having a gear that redlines at ~250 MPH or whatever like this and the Z06 do.

And again you still miss the point. They didn't give this thing a lofty redline for more speed. They did it to enhance the driving experience and make something that stood apart from a regular Mustang or Camaro. The 911 Turbo has always been faster than the GT3 and yet the GT3 retains its value better and is held in higher regard by folks who track both. Do you have even a shred of a clue why that is?

Again not everybody buys a performance car to bench race and add inches to their penis. I know this is probably hard for you to comprehend but some people actually enjoy driving, and don't need to be the fastest idiot at the stop light.

[12,000 RPM]

The tall lower gears is for track use since it reduces the number of shifts. Shifting costs time...at least that's how Porsche explained it with regards to the GT4. Since I will never take the car on a track, but I want that engine, suspension, body work, and noise, I want the GT350 with more aggressive gearing. IME, different transmission gear ratios is the way to do this, not with super aggressive rear end ratios like Sporty suggests.

Aggressive rear ends ( ) and gear ratios amount to the same thing. Porsche's explanation was bullshit- the reality is the GT4 was built to cost and they didn't want to spend the money to change the gears from the Carrera S they took the GT4's powertrain from. They also probably didn't want to step on the 911's toes too much- a more aggressively geared GT4 would give everything south of the GT3 "The Business". Let's not forget emissions regs either.

You never wanting to take this car on the track only further justifies more aggressive gearing. This thing revs to 8300 or whatever. That high redline is the whole point of the car. How often will you get to take it there on the street with its long ass gearing? Stock gearing means you will be easily breaking the law at redline in 3rd. Meanwhile if 3rd were geared to top out at 85 or 90 or so you'd get that much more scream from it without raising the ire of the law. I know you don't like me but that's no reason to purposely be wrong.

[MX793]

While either final drive or transmission ratios can be adjusted to get the same road speed / RPM relationship, there are design considerations that would lead to choosing one vs the other.  Driveshaft strength, length, and natural frequency, as examples.

[CaminoRacer]

This is silly since no one is going to cross-shop a Mustang and a Corvette. Buy whichever one you like more, since both are incredibly fun and entertaining. I'm tired of the "this car is best" competitions. Wait another year and the other car will be the best.

I finally watched the LaFerrari vs. P1 vs. 918 comparo by Chris Harris and I enjoyed how they didn't pick a winner. Just enjoy the cars for what they are and stop trying to dump on the "other team".

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

But I like Ford's approach vs Chevy's.

That's why the Camaro exist. Of course the Mustang/Camaro is gonna be more "Livable" than a Vette but thats not what this comparo was about!

[280Z Turbo]

This is silly since no one is going to cross-shop a Mustang and a Corvette.

Why not?

[CaminoRacer]

Why not?

Biggest reason: Because one's a Ford and one's a Chevy.

But it's also pony car vs. sports car. Top of the lineup vs. bottom of the lineup. Limited edition vs. bread and butter.