C7 Corvette

[280Z Turbo]

Biggest reason: Because one's a Ford and one's a Chevy.

But it's also pony car vs. sports car. Top of the lineup vs. bottom of the lineup. Limited edition vs. bread and butter.

That's stupid. Outside of the enthusiast world they're both sports cars.

[Eye of the Tiger]

That's stupid. Outside of the enthusiast world they're both sports cars.

Yeah, so is a Pontiac Grand Am

[CaminoRacer]

That's stupid. Outside of the enthusiast world they're both sports cars.

Yeah and outside of the enthusiast world, such in depth comparisons of the cars is unheard of.

[280Z Turbo]

Yeah, so is a Pontiac Grand Am

Only if it's the 2 door with RAM AIR and the 3.4L V6

[12,000 RPM]

That's stupid. Outside of the enthusiast world they're both sports cars.

Mustang is about as much of a sports car as a BMW 6 series.....

[AutobahnSHO]

New Vettes are the only GM I would buy besides Volt. Those Vettes look so sweet, in hardtop or vert.

[SVT666]

Aggressive rear ends ( ) and gear ratios amount to the same thing.

No, they don't. Not at all. Aggressive rear ends affect every gear including your overdrive gear(s). Changing the gear ratios in the tranny only affect the gears you change and leave your cruising gears alone.

Porsche's explanation was bullshit- the reality is the GT4 was built to cost and they didn't want to spend the money to change the gears from the Carrera S they took the GT4's powertrain from. They also probably didn't want to step on the 911's toes too much- a more aggressively geared GT4 would give everything south of the GT3 "The Business". Let's not forget emissions regs either.

Looking at all the high horsepower track focused cars, their lower gears tend to be geared tall.

You never wanting to take this car on the track only further justifies more aggressive gearing. This thing revs to 8300 or whatever. That high redline is the whole point of the car. How often will you get to take it there on the street with its long ass gearing? Stock gearing means you will be easily breaking the law at redline in 3rd. Meanwhile if 3rd were geared to top out at 85 or 90 or so you'd get that much more scream from it without raising the ire of the law. I know you don't like me but that's no reason to purposely be wrong.

Thanks for backing up what I said.

[68_427]

Mustang is about as much of a sports car as a BMW 6 series.....

You just agreed with him.  Outside of the enthusiast world the 6 series is a sports car ass well.  As is a fucking 4 series

[GoCougs]

If the GT350 had transmission ratios like the regular GT, it would annihilate the SS in a straight line. But that's not what this car is about.

It would be a bit quicker but not hugely so. For example, the 8AT Z06 has one full gear deeper gearing than the 7MT Z06 but only picks up ~0.3 sec in the 1/4 mile, and the stock Mustang GT vs. GT350 gearing advantage isn't as aggressive as the 8AT vs. 7MT Z06. The GT350 would pick up 0.2-0.3 but that's definitely not an annihilation, and not only because the 8AT Camaro SS is running a 12.2-12.3 1/4 mile .

[MX793]

If the GT350 had transmission ratios like the regular GT, it would annihilate the SS in a straight line. But that's not what this car is about.

The GT350 transmission ratios aren't much taller than the standard GT w/ 3.73s.

1st gear is 6 mph/1000 RPM on the GTPP vs 6.7 for the GT350
2nd gear is 9.1 vs 9.8.

That is, in fact, very close to the gearing of a regular GT with the standard 3.31 gears.

The lofty redline is what gets it the high top speeds in each gear, but I don't think I'd want it geared much shorter for daily driving.

[SVT666]

It would be a bit quicker but not hugely so. For example, the 8AT Z06 has one full gear deeper gearing than the 7MT Z06 but only picks up ~0.3 sec in the 1/4 mile, and the stock Mustang GT vs. GT350 gearing advantage isn't as aggressive as the 8AT vs. 7MT Z06. The GT350 would pick up 0.2-0.3 but that's definitely not an annihilation, and not only because the 8AT Camaro SS is running a 12.2-12.3 1/4 mile .

3 tenths in the 1/4 mile is an annihilation. That's several car lengths.

[GoCougs]

3 tenths in the 1/4 mile is an annihilation. That's several car lengths.

It's a few car lengths but it is not an annihilation.

[MX793]

A few car lengths is a pretty decisive victory.

[GoCougs]

Okay, now I got it; a lowly Camaro SS 8AT then "annihilates" a $50k GT350 .

Car and Driver: 2016 Camaro 2SS 8AT
0-60 in 3.9 sec
1/4 mile in 12.3 sec @ 116

Car and Driver: 2016 Mustang GT350
0-60 in 4.3 sec
1/4 mile in 12.5 sec @ 119

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Okay, now I got it; a lowly Camaro SS 8AT then "annihilates" a $50k GT350 .

Car and Driver: 2016 Camaro 2SS 8AT
0-60 in 3.9 sec
1/4 mile in 12.3 sec @ 116

Car and Driver: 2016 Mustang GT350
0-60 in 4.3 sec
1/4 mile in 12.5 sec @ 119

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Of all the members carspin lost over the years, and cougs wasn't one of them.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Of all the members carspin lost over the years, and cougs wasn't one of them.

Don't hate the player........

[Eye of the Tiger]

Of all the members carspin lost over the years, and cougs wasn't one of them.

Maybe you should spend more time with your trains.

[MrH]

Okay, now I got it; a lowly Camaro SS 8AT then "annihilates" a $50k GT350 .

Car and Driver: 2016 Camaro 2SS 8AT
0-60 in 3.9 sec
1/4 mile in 12.3 sec @ 116

Car and Driver: 2016 Mustang GT350
0-60 in 4.3 sec
1/4 mile in 12.5 sec @ 119

[MX793]

Okay, now I got it; a lowly Camaro SS 8AT then "annihilates" a $50k GT350 .

Car and Driver: 2016 Camaro 2SS 8AT
0-60 in 3.9 sec
1/4 mile in 12.3 sec @ 116

Car and Driver: 2016 Mustang GT350
0-60 in 4.3 sec
1/4 mile in 12.5 sec @ 119

To 60 and through the 1/4, yes.  Although, looking at the numbers, the Camaro's advantage is that it gets out of the hole quicker.  .4s ahead at 60, but only .2 ahead in the 1/4 (and 3 mph lower trap speed) and it's seconds behind by 150.

But, as we've already established, the GT350 isn't a drag racer and isn't optimized for dead-dig accelerations.  It's geared for road racing, where speeds are generally 40+ mph.  Watch the MotorTrend GT350 vs Z/28 track battle on Chuckwala where the minimum speed was 43 mph on the tightest corner on the track, and 50+ everywhere else.  In the '15 Mustang GT vs 1LE on the rather tight Streets of Willow course, they were 40+ everywhere but the hairpin turn 1, where speeds dropped to ~37 mph.  In a 45-120 mph rolling drag race, my money is on the GT350.

[12,000 RPM]

Cougs is a real piece of work. Not even a page ago he was talking about how track cars like the GT350 are geared long "for the track". For fucks sake, the SS automatic is geared a good 13-15% in the first 2 gears. SS 6MT is as fast as the auto but is geared even shorter than the automatic (only hits 65 in 1st gear). Again how much faster would the GT350 be if it weren't "geared for the track"?

[Eye of the Tiger]

Summit is geared long for the track.

[12,000 RPM]

[GoCougs]

To 60 and through the 1/4, yes.  Although, looking at the numbers, the Camaro's advantage is that it gets out of the hole quicker.  .4s ahead at 60, but only .2 ahead in the 1/4 (and 3 mph lower trap speed) and it's seconds behind by 150.

But, as we've already established, the GT350 isn't a drag racer and isn't optimized for dead-dig accelerations.  It's geared for road racing, where speeds are generally 40+ mph.  Watch the MotorTrend GT350 vs Z/28 track battle on Chuckwala where the minimum speed was 43 mph on the tightest corner on the track, and 50+ everywhere else.  In the '15 Mustang GT vs 1LE on the rather tight Streets of Willow course, they were 40+ everywhere but the hairpin turn 1, where speeds dropped to ~37 mph.  In a 45-120 mph rolling drag race, my money is on the GT350.

The GT350 would indeed win from a faster roll; it's losing the 0-60 and 1/4 mile drag race in the first ~100 feet, trying to climb the lower registers in that long first gear.

The GT350's detriment isn't its gearing or lack of "optimization" for acceleration; I stated it is its lack of VVL. Lots of performance cars have as tall or taller gearing, but none I can find under perform its power/weight ratio like the GT350 (at least 0-60 and 1/4 mile).

[MX793]

The GT350 would indeed win from a faster roll; it's losing the 0-60 and 1/4 mile drag race in the first ~100 feet, trying to climb the lower registers in that long first gear.

The GT350's detriment isn't its gearing or lack of "optimization" for acceleration; I stated it is its lack of VVL. Lots of performance cars have as tall or taller gearing, but none I can find under perform its power/weight ratio like the GT350 (at least 0-60 and 1/4 mile).

In terms of mph/rpm, it's not geared all that tall.  It's high redline would allow it to be shorter, but that would compromise its on-road manners and make 1st gear a bit obnoxious in normal driving.  Journalists have noted that the car, particularly in non-R form, is tricky to launch, and that is probably what hurts it as much as lacking VVL.

As far as poor 0-60 and 1/4 mile times relative to power/weight, the Z28 is just as bad, if not worse.

[GoCougs]

In terms of mph/rpm, it's not geared all that tall.  It's high redline would allow it to be shorter, but that would compromise its on-road manners and make 1st gear a bit obnoxious in normal driving.  Journalists have noted that the car, particularly in non-R form, is tricky to launch, and that is probably what hurts it as much as lacking VVL.

As far as poor 0-60 and 1/4 mile times relative to power/weight, the Z28 is just as bad, if not worse.

I'd have some doubt on tall gearing as a mitigation for tricky driveability. Other cars have had lofty red lines/fuel cut-offs (G37 M/T, S2000) yet had much shorter gearing than the GT350.

The Z/28 is a bit quicker (exact numbers as the 2016 Camaro SS 8AT), but is ~140 lbs heavier and down ~20 hp WRT the GT350.

[12,000 RPM]

Tall gearing is for emissions/fuel economy test gaming, and to a degree traction management (keeping acceleration under 1g)

[SVT666]

Tall gearing is for emissions/fuel economy test gaming, and to a degree traction management (keeping acceleration under 1g)

Tall gearing in first gear isn't going to game the EPA.

[SVT666]

I'd have some doubt on tall gearing as a mitigation for tricky driveability. Other cars have had lofty red lines/fuel cut-offs (G37 M/T, S2000) yet had much shorter gearing than the GT350.

The Z/28 is a bit quicker (exact numbers as the 2016 Camaro SS 8AT), but is ~140 lbs heavier and down ~20 hp WRT the GT350.

G37 and S2000 don't have 500+hp.

[MX793]

I'd have some doubt on tall gearing as a mitigation for tricky driveability. Other cars have had lofty red lines/fuel cut-offs (G37 M/T, S2000) yet had much shorter gearing than the GT350.

The Z/28 is a bit quicker (exact numbers as the 2016 Camaro SS 8AT), but is ~140 lbs heavier and down ~20 hp WRT the GT350.

I didn't say that shorter gearing would make it necessarily trickier to drive, but that it would make it obnoxious.  Unlike a small 4-cylinder (S2000), winding a V8 out to 3000-3500 RPM between shifts in normal driving tends to attract attention, especially in something as boisterous as a GT350.  Not to mention you burn considerably more fuel (in theory, over 2X as much as an S2000 at the same RPM).  As it is geared today, shifting out of first at 2000 in a GT350 would have you traveling at 13-14 mph, which is about where you'd be at 2900 RPM in an S2000.  Both are reasonable shift points for their respective sized engines in normal driving in traffic.  Since it was brought up, a G37 would be at around 2500 RPM at that speed in 1st, which is, again, not unreasonable for a motor of that size and configuration.  That's about where I shifted my old V6 Mustang.  Nobody is going to glance over and say "look at the yahoo wringing his motor out to impress people" when you are in fact just tooling along with traffic.

What are we using to classify the gearing as "tall"?  MPH/RPM or redline limited max speed for the gear?

In terms of the former, the GT350 has the following:
1st gear:  6.7 mph/1000 rpm
2nd gear:  9.8 mph/1000 rpm
3rd gear:  13.6 mph/1000 rpm

That's about what a regular Mustang GT with 3.55 gears runs (slightly taller first and second, same for 3rd).  Shorter gearing in terms of mph/RPM than a Z/28.

The car probably could have gone with a slightly shorter final drive without pushing into the realm of obnoxiously short for street use, perhaps even as short as a G37 in terms of mph/RPM, but that still would have had it topping out at nearly 75 mph in 2nd gear, which sounds pretty tall.