C7 Corvette

[SJ_GTI]

Question: Why would a mid/rear engine Corvette be inherently more expensive than the front engine version? Its a unique platform not shared with any other model anyway, no? Porsche's Boxter/Caymen are not that much cheaper.

[MX793]

Question: Why would a mid/rear engine Corvette be inherently more expensive than the front engine version? Its a unique platform not shared with any other model anyway, no? Porsche's Boxter/Caymen are not that much cheaper.

Yeah.  Barring some exotic materials/construction, I wouldn't expect a bespoke mid-engine platform to cost more than a bespoke front-engine platform.

[12,000 RPM]

Well, if Cougs is to be believed, the C8 will spread the gap in performance and desirability, which would come with a commensurate price increase. No different from a 911 costing way more than a Cayman, despite (until recently) essentially having the same engine and chassis (to a large degree). They would charge more because they (think they) can, just as they tried to do with the ATS/CTS ambitious pricing. Whether such a strategy would succeed is another discussion...

[GoCougs]

Question: Why would a mid/rear engine Corvette be inherently more expensive than the front engine version? Its a unique platform not shared with any other model anyway, no? Porsche's Boxter/Caymen are not that much cheaper.

Two main factors:

1.) MR engine cars by and large are not big sellers so the automaker has to price (recover) accordingly;
2.) Given equivalent tech a MR chassis will require more engineering/design (handling, safety and packaging (anything from engine access to cooling)) and more expensive sub-assemblies (transaxle).

[MX793]

1) It's not like 2-seat RWD cars sell in large quantities as a whole.  It's a very niche segment.

2) Corvette already uses a transaxle, so there's that piece out of the way. 

And it's not like the Vette shares much in terms of chassis design with anything else GM sells where they could have gotten some economy of scale.  Completely different construction from Alpha or Sigma platforms.  There would be some learning curve given that GM hasn't ever made a mid-engine production car, but that's not insurmountable.

[GoCougs]

Pretty much the only thing that sells less than a front engine 2-seater is a mid-engine 2-seater.

The Corvette "transaxle" is just a transmission bolted to a differential. A MR transaxle is a much more complicated and compact beast, particularly that the input shaft has to run parallel to the transmission to get the differential (and thus axles) as close to the engine as possible in order to minimize overall engine/transmission/differential length.

[280Z Turbo]

Short generations are good - past Corvettes suffered immensely from depressingly long generations (C2 = 10 years, C3 = 15 years, C4 = 13 years).

The C2 was only 5 model years.

[Byteme]

Question: Why would a mid/rear engine Corvette be inherently more expensive than the front engine version? Its a unique platform not shared with any other model anyway, no? Porsche's Boxter/Caymen are not that much cheaper.

I'd assume a switch to mid engine would take a total redesign of the chassis, suspension, ancillary equipment etc., i.e., a clean sheet of paper design vs. refining-improving an existing design.  That's got to cost way more than the evolution from say C5 to C6  or C6 to C7.  Those costs would need to amortized over the production run.   Plus all the new tooling and jigs, possible plant revisions, etc.

[12,000 RPM]

They would never get their money back. They could call it the Alpha II

[MX793]

Pretty much the only thing that sells less than a front engine 2-seater is a mid-engine 2-seater.

The Corvette "transaxle" is just a transmission bolted to a differential. A MR transaxle is a much more complicated and compact beast, particularly that the input shaft has to run parallol to the transmission to get the differential (and thus axles) as close to the engine as possible in order to minimize overall engine/transmission/differential length.

Mid-engine, 2-seaters don't sell well because so few offer them, and even fewer of those are at a price that the average, middle-class American could afford them.  Off the top of my head, the only mid-engine cars that were affordable in the past 35 or 40 years were the Fiat X1/9 and Toyota MR2/MR-S.  The next tier up you had/have cars like the Boxster, Elise, and recently-released Alfa 4C, which start at around the same price point as a Corvette or a bit higher.  Beyond that you're into 6-figure exotic territory.  The layout doesn't lend itself to platform flexibility or sharing the way a FR layout does (Nissan's FM comes to mind), so from an ROI standpoint, it's hard to justify for such a low volume vehicle.  If a company is going to build a sports/sporty car, it's often easier to just go FR since they can amortize some of the cost via leveraging existing designs.  If you're committed to investing in a completely bespoke, 2-seat car platform/chassis that will share next to nothing with anything else in your lineup, a MR setup really isn't going to be appreciably more expensive to implement/develop than a FR, provided you have the same level of know-how and expertise to support either configuration.

[12,000 RPM]

Plus I'm sure they had to completely retool and all going from the C6 to C7. It's possible, but if they try and get greedy it's going to fail.

I still think Corvette, like Escalade, could branch off into a sub brand. A Corvette Stingray at the bottom, with a MR Zora above it and whatever else they want to add to the line could work. They could even make the next SS under that brand. The C&C Joe HELOC buyers would love it.

[MX793]

Plus I'm sure they had to completely retool and all going from the C6 to C7. It's possible, but if they try and get greedy it's going to fail.

I still think Corvette, like Escalade, could branch off into a sub brand. A Corvette Stingray at the bottom, with a MR Zora above it and whatever else they want to add to the line could work. They could even make the next SS under that brand. The C&C Joe HELOC buyers would love it.

Given that the C7 was a truly new Corvette (vs the heavy refresh that was the C6), I'd also be surprised if they jumped to another completely new car in 5-6 years.  Maybe after 12 years, with another C6-esque generation tossed in to keep it fresh.  Or they introduce a new MR car that is distinct from and sold alongside the Corvette as we know it today.

[CaminoRacer]

I'd also argue that the Camaro is such a good platform now because of all the R&D done on the Corvette and the subsequent trickle-down. If the Corvette changes the MR they'll lose a lot of the cross-over in R&D design and tuning.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Given that the C7 was a truly new Corvette (vs the heavy refresh that was the C6), I'd also be surprised if they jumped to another completely new car in 5-6 years.  Maybe after 12 years, with another C6-esque generation tossed in to keep it fresh.  Or they introduce a new MR car that is distinct from and sold alongside the Corvette as we know it today.

THIS! I believe the Mid Engine car will be a Halo Vette (ZR1) sold along with the Front engined car! Can you say Ford GT fighter?

[12,000 RPM]

Given that the C7 was a truly new Corvette (vs the heavy refresh that was the C6), I'd also be surprised if they jumped to another completely new car in 5-6 years.  Maybe after 12 years, with another C6-esque generation tossed in to keep it fresh.  Or they introduce a new MR car that is distinct from and sold alongside the Corvette as we know it today.

Yea I don't see them going MR for the C8. It's gotta be a separate model IMO.

[GoCougs]

Mid-engine, 2-seaters don't sell well because so few offer them, and even fewer of those are at a price that the average, middle-class American could afford them.  Off the top of my head, the only mid-engine cars that were affordable in the past 35 or 40 years were the Fiat X1/9 and Toyota MR2/MR-S.  The next tier up you had/have cars like the Boxster, Elise, and recently-released Alfa 4C, which start at around the same price point as a Corvette or a bit higher.  Beyond that you're into 6-figure exotic territory.  The layout doesn't lend itself to platform flexibility or sharing the way a FR layout does (Nissan's FM comes to mind), so from an ROI standpoint, it's hard to justify for such a low volume vehicle.  If a company is going to build a sports/sporty car, it's often easier to just go FR since they can amortize some of the cost via leveraging existing designs.  If you're committed to investing in a completely bespoke, 2-seat car platform/chassis that will share next to nothing with anything else in your lineup, a MR setup really isn't going to be appreciably more expensive to implement/develop than a FR, provided you have the same level of know-how and expertise to support either configuration.

It's a demand pull not a push. If "affordable" MR cars sold well enough, automakers would make them.

Let's not forget the most successful selling MR car of all time - the Pontiac Fiero. Apropos to the discussion, take the '86 Fiero GT and its base MSRP of $12,999 compared to the the '86 Z/28 base MSRP of $12,300 and the '86 Mustang GT base MSRP of $11,000. The Fiero's parts sharing + far less capability +  equivalent price = relatively more expensive to design and produce.

[MX793]

Ah, how could I have forgotten the Fiero...

The Fiero was developed on a paltry $300 million budget, which included plant retooling.  GM also hamstrung the car by deciding it should be an economical commuter rather than a sports car.  They largely corrected this with the updates in '88, just in time to kill the model.  4-cylinder models were priced comparably to a VW Rabbit or Plymouth Horizon.  It also sold very well initially (something like 40% of total sales were in the first year), but then sales fell as people realized its performance was underwhelming.

[Payman]

Brother-in-law and his brother passing through yesterday. Just picked up the new Stingray in Oshawa that morning. Brief visit, they were on their way to Ottawa for the night. I started it up and took it in for a few minutes... very nice car and quite impressed with the interior. I'll be meeting up with him again later this summer, hope to get a test drive.

[Raza]

Pretty good looking, but a little too busy. I think the C6 looks better.

So, three and a half years later, I'm really liking this.  It still doesn't scream "Corvette" to me when I see it; in fact, I saw one today and my brother thought it was an exotic.  But man, it's a very good looking car.  I'd buy one. 

[GoCougs]

M/T last month had a wrap-up review of its long term C7 and like C&D long term C7 itl wasn't pretty - quality problems (electrical gremlins), manufacturing problems (bad motors) and design problems (loads of squeaks and rattles). I like the concept of the Corvette but Chevy just has never been able to deliver on making it a great car to live with.

[MX793]

So, three and a half years later, I'm really liking this.  It still doesn't scream "Corvette" to me when I see it; in fact, I saw one today and my brother thought it was an exotic.  But man, it's a very good looking car.  I'd buy one. 

I frequently have to do a double-take to verify that I'm looking at a Corvette and not a Ferrari.  Particularly when I spot one coming straight at me.  Fantastic looking car.  The interior is pretty nice, too.  But, as Cougs noted, the magazine's haven't had good luck with their long term test cars.

[Raza]

I frequently have to do a double-parked to verify that I'm looking at a Corvette and not a Ferrari.  Particularly when I spot one coming straight at me.  Fantastic looking car.  The interior is pretty nice, too.  But, as Cougs noted, the magazine's haven't had good luck with their long term test cars.

Yeah, I guess it is still GM.

[Payman]

Those long termers were first year cars, and by now (hopefully) the issues have been dealt with. The thing that strikes me about Corvettes is how they hold their value. A quick search shows that 10 year old cars, 2006-2007 last gen priced in the 30's... still some 50% of their original msrps. Couple that with low parts and maintenance costs, and it's still one of the better sportscars to buy.

There's a red one with black trim/wheels in Belleville... a Ferrari badge wouldn't look out of place on it. 

[Raza]

Those long termers were first year cars, and by now (hopefully) the issues have been dealt with. The thing that strikes me about Corvettes is how they hold their value. A quick search shows that 10 year old cars, 2006-2007 last gen priced in the 30's... still some 50% of their original msrps. Couple that with low parts and maintenance costs, and it's still one of the better sportscars to buy.

There's a red one with black trim/wheels in Belleville... a Ferrari badge wouldn't look out of place on it. 

I don't know how they hold such value. They make so many of them.

[Payman]

I don't know how they hold such value. They make so many of them.

High demand. At the 30k price point, a lightly used Corvette is an attractive buy for lower middle-class enthusiasts. Buyers also know that original owners tend to baby them. Finally, most dealers will finance an up to 10 yr old Vette.

[12,000 RPM]

M/T last month had a wrap-up review of its long term C7 and like C&D long term C7 itl wasn't pretty - quality problems (electrical gremlins), manufacturing problems (bad motors) and design problems (loads of squeaks and rattles). I like the concept of the Corvette but Chevy just has never been able to deliver on making it a great car to live with.

The Corvette has transcended to the point that it can now provide a true world class sports car experience









De prices HIYAH

Corvette on FIYAH

Feelin HOT HOT HOT

[Payman]

The Corvette has transcended to the point that it can now provide a true world class sports car experience









De prices HIYAH

Corvette on FIYAH

Feelin HOT HOT HOT

I laughed, I cried...

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I lurk and read the corvette forums frequently. First, the first hear car thing is bs, people are still having issues with these. Secondly, the used corvette market is interesting. A corvette guy selling wants top dollar, usually higher than dealer book, the same guy as a buyer wants to pay less than trade in and will pick apart your dime a dozen corvette. Sure a lot of people   are lime that. Never seen a worse case than the corvette guys though.

[GoCougs]

Yeah, I guess it is still GM.

The Corvette for various reasons has had livability issues since it debuted in '53 yet GM has made some fantastic cars since then.

The intro of new Corvette generations are generally groundbreaking but GM just doesn't spend the time to get the details right, which is a shame given how long previous Corvette generations have lasted.

IMO, GM spends too much money on things that don't really help (leaf springs, goofy tech, maybe even space frame chassis) rather than spending time on things like reliability/durability and quality.

[68_427]

I lurk and read the corvette forums frequently. First, the first hear car thing is bs, people are still having issues with these. Secondly, the used corvette market is interesting. A corvette guy selling wants top dollar, usually higher than dealer book, the same guy as a buyer wants to pay less than trade in and will pick apart your dime a dozen corvette. Sure a lot of people   are lime that. Never seen a worse case than the corvette guys though.

That's cus the FOG original owners think they are the holy grail of cars, and the used buyers have the "it's American and not a Porsche" view on depreciation lol