Bye bye VQ on the Q50....

[TurboDan]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for some of you guys to accept entry-level premium cars.

Not every luxury buyer cares about hitting 100 km/h in under six seconds. Some people have different priorities and they feel that an entry-level luxury car is all that they need. They might not opt for the most powerful model in the lineup, but they still can enjoy the luxury experience with the same features (standard or optional).

Buying a luxury car is never financially logical. If people were logical we'd all be falling asleep behind the wheel of Camcords!

[MX793]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for some of you guys to accept entry-level premium cars.

Not every luxury buyer cares about hitting 100 km/h in under six seconds. Some people have different priorities and they feel that an entry-level luxury car is all that they need. They might not opt for the most powerful model in the lineup, but they still can enjoy the luxury experience with the same features (standard or optional).

Buying a luxury car is never financially logical. If people were logical we'd all be falling asleep behind the wheel of Camcords!

A luxury car without luxury features is, by definition, not a luxury car.

[cawimmer430]

A luxury car without luxury features is, by definition, not a luxury car.

Entry-level luxury cars already have a lot of nice features, especially those sold in North America.

[MrH]

A stripper entry luxury car without luxury features...how is that more of a luxury car than a loaded mainstreamer with more luxury features?

[MX793]

Entry-level luxury cars already have a lot of nice features, especially those sold in North America.

In many cases, their feature content is no better than a mid-level mainstream vehicle.  I will give you the standard feature list for 2 vehicles.  One is an entry-level "luxury" car.  One is a mid-level trim of a mainstream car.  The price difference between these two is $5,000.  You tell me which is the luxury car and which is the mainstream car.

Car A:
Engine:  4-cylinder, 180 hp
Transmission:  Automatic w/ manual mode
Exterior features:
-Power adjustable mirrors, manual folding
-Halogen headlamps
-17" Alloy wheels
-Automatic windshield wipers
-Automatic headlights
Interior features:
-Manual adjustable seats
-Vinyl seating surfaces
-Trip computer
-Automatic, dual-zone climate control
-Power windows
-Power locks
-Tilt/telescope steering column
-Smart key w/ Driver memory settings
-Dynamic cruise control
-Bluetooth hands-free support
-Steering wheel mounted audio and cruise controls
-AM/FM/CD/MP3 stereo with aux input and HD radio

Car B
Engine:  4-cylinder, 200 hp
Transmission:  Automatic w/ manual mode
Exterior features:
-Power adjustable, heated mirrors, power folding
-17" alloy wheels
-Halogen headlamps
Interior features:
-Power front seats
-Heated and cooled front seats
-Heated rear seats
-Leather seating surfaces
-Driver's memory seat
-Heated steering wheel
-Trip computer
-Power windows
-Power locks
-Power sunroof
-Bluetooth hands-free phone support
-Steering wheel mounted audio and cruise controls
-Cooled glove box
-Cruise control
-Rearview camera
-AM/FM/CD/MP3 stereo with aux input and HD radio (w/ voice commands)

[MrH]

But....but...H&H™!!!!

[MX793]

But....but...H&H™!!!!

Admittedly, there are some intangibles that go with the "luxury" car.  I'm sure the interior has some nicer materials and is likely put together a bit better.  Some of the engineering and technology under the skin is a bit more advanced or sophisticated.  But from a "luxury" standpoint, it really is no more luxurious than a non-luxury car.

And thus back to my point, a luxury car without luxury features is not really a luxury car.  Premium car, maybe, but not luxury.

[ifcar]

In many cases, their feature content is no better than a mid-level mainstream vehicle.  I will give you the standard feature list for 2 vehicles.  One is an entry-level "luxury" car.  One is a mid-level trim of a mainstream car.  The price difference between these two is $5,000.  You tell me which is the luxury car and which is the mainstream car.

Car A:
Engine:  4-cylinder, 180 hp
Transmission:  Automatic w/ manual mode
Exterior features:
-Power adjustable mirrors, manual folding
-Halogen headlamps
-17" Alloy wheels
-Automatic windshield wipers
-Automatic headlights
Interior features:
-Manual adjustable seats
-Vinyl seating surfaces
-Trip computer
-Automatic, dual-zone climate control
-Power windows
-Power locks
-Tilt/telescope steering column
-Smart key w/ Driver memory settings
-Dynamic cruise control
-Bluetooth hands-free support
-Steering wheel mounted audio and cruise controls
-AM/FM/CD/MP3 stereo with aux input and HD radio

Car B
Engine:  4-cylinder, 200 hp
Transmission:  Automatic w/ manual mode
Exterior features:
-Power adjustable, heated mirrors, power folding
-17" alloy wheels
-Halogen headlamps
Interior features:
-Power front seats
-Heated and cooled front seats
-Heated rear seats
-Leather seating surfaces
-Driver's memory seat
-Heated steering wheel
-Trip computer
-Power windows
-Power locks
-Power sunroof
-Bluetooth hands-free phone support
-Steering wheel mounted audio and cruise controls
-Cooled glove box
-Cruise control
-Rearview camera
-AM/FM/CD/MP3 stereo with aux input and HD radio (w/ voice commands)

Car B sounds like a Kia Optima.....but who has just 180 horsepower?

[Raza]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for some of you guys to accept entry-level premium cars.

Not every luxury buyer cares about hitting 100 km/h in under six seconds. Some people have different priorities and they feel that an entry-level luxury car is all that they need. They might not opt for the most powerful model in the lineup, but they still can enjoy the luxury experience with the same features (standard or optional).

Buying a luxury car is never financially logical. If people were logical we'd all be falling asleep behind the wheel of Camcords!

Entry level luxury cars do hit 60 in under 6 seconds, as evidenced by the A4 2.0T, S60 T6, and 328i.

[MX793]

Entry level luxury cars do hit 60 in under 6 seconds, as evidenced by the A4 2.0T, S60 T6, and 328i.

The T6 isn't the S60's base trim.  That's mid-level.

[TurboDan]

Admittedly, there are some intangibles that go with the "luxury" car.  I'm sure the interior has some nicer materials and is likely put together a bit better.  Some of the engineering and technology under the skin is a bit more advanced or sophisticated.  But from a "luxury" standpoint, it really is no more luxurious than a non-luxury car.

And thus back to my point, a luxury car without luxury features is not really a luxury car.  Premium car, maybe, but not luxury.

The intangibles mean a lot, in my opinion. The feel of driving a loaded Accord versus a 3er, for example, is not the same. The BMW just feels more solid and better screwed together, there are fewer panel gaps and places where the manufacturer cheaped out, and the lux car will often be better ergonomically designed for the driver.

And yes, I've driven both. Most mainstream Japanese cars feel "toy" like to me. A BMW feels like a mini tank on the road.

[Char]

Uhhh, sure. The E36 falls apart faster than Accords of the same vintage, and the E46 isn't much better.

[GoCougs]

The intangibles mean a lot, in my opinion. The feel of driving a loaded Accord versus a 3er, for example, is not the same. The BMW just feels more solid and better screwed together, there are fewer panel gaps and places where the manufacturer cheaped out, and the lux car will often be better ergonomically designed for the driver.

And yes, I've driven both. Most mainstream Japanese cars feel "toy" like to me. A BMW feels like a mini tank on the road.

The primary buyer for that sort of car; the 29 year-old-girl in accounting; doesn't know anything about panel gaps or feel. That same girl in a blind test would also conclude a loaded Accord sedan to be more luxurious than the entry level 3er.

[68_427]

Car B sounds like a Kia Optima.....but who has just 180 horsepower?

320i I think.

[hotrodalex]

The primary buyer for that sort of car; the 29 year-old-girl in accounting; doesn't know anything about panel gaps or feel. That same girl in a blind test would also conclude a loaded Accord sedan to be more luxurious than the entry level 3er.

And you know this how?

[CALL_911]

The primary buyer for that sort of car; the 29 year-old-girl in accounting; doesn't know anything about panel gaps or feel. That same girl in a blind test would also conclude a loaded Accord sedan to be more luxurious than the entry level 3er.

Doesn't relate to the 3er, but I would agree that said girl would find a 2006 Accord EX to be more luxurious than a 2006 TSX. I know I do.

[SVT666]

The primary buyer for that sort of car; the 29 year-old-girl in accounting; doesn't know anything about panel gaps or feel. That same girl in a blind test would also conclude a loaded Accord sedan to be more luxurious than the entry level 3er.

Evidence?

[Cookie Monster]

Doesn't relate to the 3er, but I would agree that said girl would find a 2006 Accord EX to be more luxurious than a 2006 TSX. I know I do.

Are you saying you're a 29 year old female accountant?

[TurboDan]

The primary buyer for that sort of car; the 29 year-old-girl in accounting; doesn't know anything about panel gaps or feel. That same girl in a blind test would also conclude a loaded Accord sedan to be more luxurious than the entry level 3er.

Hardly anybody outside of posters on automotive forums do. But most people know which car feels better when they drive them, even if they cannot articulate those feelings the way people here can.

For all your anti-German bluster about badge snobbery and the 3er being marketed to know-nothing girls in their 20s, don't you find it even slightly ironic that you drive the exact same kind of car, only from a different manufacturer?

[GoCougs]

Hardly anybody outside of posters on automotive forums do. But most people know which car feels better when they drive them, even if they cannot articulate those feelings the way people here can.

For all your anti-German bluster about badge snobbery and the 3er being marketed to know-nothing girls in their 20s, don't you find it even slightly ironic that you drive the exact same kind of car, only from a different manufacturer?

I disagree - the most that 29 year-old girl from accounting will be able to articulate are the basics such as road noise and ride and maybe body roll.

Nah, my lol is directed at stripper ~$30k 3ers. My car was a mid-optioned AWD variant with a $42k MSRP in addition to being from the far and away least snobby luxury brand in existence (and why the G25 flopped).

[Laconian]

Least snobby luxury brand in existence was Saab. They couldn't convince anybody that it was luxury, even.


@saab hey look guise, we are quirky swedes LOL #centerignition #plasticplasticplastic #epsilon #torquesteerz #fwd #fwd #fwd #ohshitnobodylikesfwd #awd #bankrupt

[Raza]

Least snobby luxury brand in existence was Saab. They couldn't convince anybody that it was luxury, even.


@saab hey look guise, we are quirky swedes LOL #centerignition #plasticplasticplastic #epsilon #torquesteerz #fwd #fwd #fwd #ohshitnobodylikesfwd #awd #bankrupt

It was so you weren't stabbed by the key in the event of an accident. Made sense. And the cars were lovely to drive, FWD or not. Not sure why they failed when Acura can survive with a 100% Accord- and Civic-based lineup that's uglier than Rosie O'Donnell fucking Larry King with a strap-on.

I mostly blame GM. 

[CJ]

As long as your butt is warm and you can't feel or hear anything, it is a good car.

The Lexus doesn't have heated seats. 

[TurboDan]

I disagree - the most that 29 year-old girl from accounting will be able to articulate are the basics such as road noise and ride and maybe body roll.

That was my point. Most people couldn't articulate the intricacies of what makes a car "feel good" but you know the inherent, intangible differences between one car and another simply by driving it.

Nah, my lol is directed at stripper ~$30k 3ers. My car was a mid-optioned AWD variant with a $42k MSRP in addition to being from the far and away least snobby luxury brand in existence (and why the G25 flopped).

Infiniti doesn't have snob appeal? Tell that to the millions of "Jersey Shore" wannabes who flood my town with G37s with undercarriage lights and big rimz every summer.

I agree with Kevin that Saab was probably the least snobby luxury brand (but what it lacked in snobbiness it made up for with excessive "quirkiness"  ). Volvo falls into the lack of snob appeal category too, I think.

Actually, the entire point of Infiniti's existence is to rebadge luxury Nissans so they're no longer regular old Nissans. 

[TurboDan]

It was so you weren't stabbed by the key in the event of an accident. Made sense. And the cars were lovely to drive, FWD or not. Not sure why they failed when Acura can survive with a 100% Accord- and Civic-based lineup that's uglier than Rosie O'Donnell fucking Larry King with a strap-on.

I mostly blame GM. 

Pretty sure they failed because despite being fun to drive and extremely comfortable, they were reliability nightmares. Very few people who had Saabs bought a second one. I didn't, even though the car was awesome on the rare occasion it actually was working properly.

[2o6]

Least snobby luxury brand in existence was Saab. They couldn't convince anybody that it was luxury, even.


@saab hey look guise, we are quirky swedes LOL #centerignition #plasticplasticplastic #epsilon #torquesteerz #fwd #fwd #fwd #ohshitnobodylikesfwd #awd #bankrupt

I don't think that was true.


Saab failed because their product sucked. The 900NG was great, but the 9-3 was basically the same. The next 9-3 was mediocre (I recall saying it was no more special than a Mazda 3), and the last 9-5 was too little, too late.

It was so you weren't stabbed by the key in the event of an accident. Made sense. And the cars were lovely to drive, FWD or not. Not sure why they failed when Acura can survive with a 100% Accord- and Civic-based lineup that's uglier than Rosie O'Donnell fucking Larry King with a strap-on.

I mostly blame GM. 

Their product was pretty shitty near the end there. The 9-7X? Saabaru? The 9-3? The old-ass 9-5 which was a Vectra underneath? By the 9-5's death, the platform was literally 15 years old. Competitors had gone through several model cycles, each one better than the last. But Saab had the nerve to rehash old shit and pass it off as a luxury car.

[SVT666]

Since buying my Infiniti I have become a snob.  I accept nothing less than $50 bottles of wine,  filet mignon,  Grey Poupon,  and Old Spice.

[Raza]

Pretty sure they failed because despite being fun to drive and extremely comfortable, they were reliability nightmares. Very few people who had Saabs bought a second one. I didn't, even though the car was awesome on the rare occasion it actually was working properly.

I know several people who have had multiple Saabs.  One guy I know even bought the same car over again in a stick.  Later model year, but the same generation.

[MX793]

I know several people who have had multiple Saabs.  One guy I know even bought the same car over again in a stick.  Later model year, but the same generation.

There are two types of Saab owners.  Those that bought them, got fed up with the reliability issues, and swore never to buy one again.  Then there are those eccentrics who pass off the miscellaneous problems as "character" and own nothing but.  The latter are akin to those with a love of old British cars fitted with Lucas electrics.

[Laconian]

Boyfriend's sister's husband is like that with an old Saab cabrio.