in the U.S. is diesel worth it?

[veeman]

i've been toying with the idea of getting a diesel car as my next purchase (not ready to buy yet)

in the U.S., where there is no tax incentive, is it worth it?  Besides the inherent "cool" factor of having something most others don't, the pros I see are better gas mileage, engine longevity, and more torque.  the cons however are that the diesel engine is more expensive than gasoline engine counterpart, diesel gas is more expensive than regular unleaded gas, not every gas station carries diesel, what good is engine longevity when living in the snow belt your car's body will only last 10 years and gas engines these days can go 200,000 miles with proper maintenance, and increased torque compared with a gasoline engine doesn't convey a big advantage when we're talking about a car, not a pick-up truck, that won't be towing anything.

thoughts?

[Cookie Monster]

Yeah I honestly don't think diesel is worth it. I wouldn't mind a Jetta TDI but I think if you don't think the rest of the car will last 10 years then the engine's not worth it.

[cawimmer430]

From a European perspective, diesel makes sense in two situations.

1) You drive a lot and thus need the gas mileage a diesel car offers.

2) You drive a big and heavy car (most luxury cars, virtually all SUVs) and thus are better off with a diesel.


Diesel cars are taxed higher here due to emissions, but that has not affected their popularity, which is still increasing.

[Madman]

Diesel makes sense for big cars and trucks.  Why most trucks and SUVs sold here aren't diesel is a mystery to me.  But, if you really want a fuel efficient car, the easiest solution is to get a small one.  A Fiesta will suit most people who would typically otherwise buy a Camry since most people drive by themselves with nobody else in the car most of time, anyway.

Yes, I'll admit I'm guilty of this, too.  I don't need a V6 powered 3,900 lb. sedan just to haul my butt back-and-forth to work.  My next car will definitely be smaller.

[93JC]

Depends on what you consider 'worth' to mean. If you mean financially speaking, don't buy a car. Buying a car won't make you any money. A car isn't an asset, it's a liability. It's a money-sucking hole.

[GoCougs]

Some of those "benefits" are myths. A diesel engine will only last longer than a gas engine if it is designed to do so; i.e., ag, marine, industrial, big rig, etc. A diesel in a Jetta isn't going to last any longer than a VTEC in a Civic. The "torque" of a diesel is mostly irrelevant given that "throttle" lag coupled with modern drivetrains that feature 6+ speeds if not CVT. The diesel cycle is inherently more efficient but the added equipment to make them more liveable and compliant with US regs reduces efficiency.

Passenger diesels are only for those who want to buy them to be different. There is no material financial, environmental, social or performance benefit and all in all even a diesel in an $80k German luxury product can't match the NVH of a gas V6 found in a $25k CamCord.

[Speed_Racer]

Unless you need the added torque/longevity from a HD full-size pickup, diesel isn't worth it.

[CALL_911]

Yeah I honestly don't think diesel is worth it. I wouldn't mind a Jetta TDI but I think if you don't think the rest of the car will last 10 years then the engine's not worth it.

I agree.

[2o6]

We should all be driving Versa sedans.

[Raza]

Generally not, based purely on expenditure.

[Char]

Nope.

I don't care if it has 250lb-ft off idle, it's still dog shit slow. I never understood the appeals of diesel cars.

[Speed_Racer]

I did get to ride along in an F350 tow truck with their 6.7 diesel, and I was surprised at how smooth and quiet it was. Much less NVH than comparable V8 full-size trucks I've been in.

It dragged my Trooper like nobody's business, too. Couldn't even tell it was back there.

[J86]

It satisfies my desire to be slightly off-base, so yes (in a passenger car)

In a truck, it makes a lot of sense for real reasons.

[Rupert]

x2

[68_427]

Diesel Cruze will be at Chocago, and should be on sale shortly after.

[Laconian]

The new Renault 1.6 diesel is fantastic, much better than any 1.6 gasser I've driven. I would buy a diesel if they were widely available. Unfortunately they are relegated to niche status in the States and priced accordingly.

[Galaxy]

Nope.

I don't care if it has 250lb-ft off idle, it's still dog shit slow. I never understood the appeals of diesel cars.

Yes you are right all diesels are slow as dog shit.



What excuse does the competition have?

[cawimmer430]

Don't forget this baby!

[veeman]

thanks for all replies!

very interesting.  i've always wondered why the vw tdi models never have the same 0% apr offers as the gas model vws do.  is there a shortage of them?  are they trying to create an artificial mystique about them?  they're the only company in the US that offers diesels for regular non-luxury cars so I think that's why they can afford to do that.

i always assumed there were large tax incentives in europe to buy diesel?  it seems that's why jeremy on top gear seems to be always pushing diesel.  may be it's because there are tax disincentives to buy large horsepower engines in england.  england is not germany however so may be it's just a british thing.

i also always assumed that diesel engines would last forever.  you always see ads on autotrader for an old mercedes with  200,000 - 300,000 miles on the odometer for sale.  it's always a diesel, never a gas model.  that's great and all but unless you drive 25,000 miles a year, i don't see the point because other components of your car including the body are going to start failing in 10 years wherever they salt the roads.  if you don't mind driving a rusty car that's o.k, but it starts looking like crap.  also components start to fail and unless you are real good and auto mechanics is your hobby, it costs an arm and a leg to keep them running.  particularly luxury makes.  fix the air conditioning, no problem, that will be 4 grand.

[Raza]

We had our 1983 300SD Turbodiesel for 20 years and 250K miles without a spot of rust on it, and it was a Pennsylvania car its entire life. 

In contrast, our 2002 E320 had some rust spots after 6 years and our 2002 S500 is essentially held together by rust.  In 20 years, Mercedes went from totally awesome to totally sucking. 

[cawimmer430]

i always assumed there were large tax incentives in europe to buy diesel?  it seems that's why jeremy on top gear seems to be always pushing diesel.  may be it's because there are tax disincentives to buy large horsepower engines in england.  england is not germany however so may be it's just a british thing.

I am not sure about the UK, but there are no tax incentives to drive a diesel car in Germany (in France there might be, though). Diesel cars in Germany are more expensive to purchase than their comparable gasoline counterparts and they're also taxed higher.

For example, I pay 11 Euros in tax ever month (132 Euros every year) for my BMW 118i (143-hp) each year. A BMW 118d (diesel with also 143-hp) costs 26 Euros a month and 312 Euros a year in tax. But, the 118d is far more fuel efficient than the 118i resulting in significant fuel cost savings if one drives a lot.

i also always assumed that diesel engines would last forever.  you always see ads on autotrader for an old mercedes with  200,000 - 300,000 miles on the odometer for sale.  it's always a diesel, never a gas model.  that's great and all but unless you drive 25,000 miles a year, i don't see the point because other components of your car including the body are going to start failing in 10 years wherever they salt the roads.  if you don't mind driving a rusty car that's o.k, but it starts looking like crap.  also components start to fail and unless you are real good and auto mechanics is your hobby, it costs an arm and a leg to keep them running.  particularly luxury makes.  fix the air conditioning, no problem, that will be 4 grand.

I'd say that a modern engine is definitely capable of lasting very long. There are so many factors that play a role here, notably how the engine was maintained and how the owner treated the motor etc.

Modern diesels are definitely capable of high mileages. The local taxis in Munich are all diesels and I'm seeing mileages in excess of 400,000 km on some of them (even though most are sold to private customers in Eastern Europe for dumping prices at around 250,000 km).

Check this out: http://www.leftlanenews.com/greek-taxi-driver-hits-1-million-kilometers-with-2003-mercedes-e-class.html

[SVT666]

With the big up front premium and then the big premium at the pumps (the difference here is $0.25 a litre), diesel makes no financial sense at all.

[Laconian]

My friend got a X5 diesel and it is pretty fucking amazing how hard that thing can pull.

[93JC]

With the big up front premium and then the big premium at the pumps (the difference here is $0.25 a litre), diesel makes no financial sense at all.

wat

Holy crapola dude, I think the difference here is 5¢. It's often 5¢ or more the other way, too!


I really don't like this "financial sense" argument. If we're talking "financial sense" here then by definition there is no point buying a new car at all, ever: better to buy used and let someone else take the depreciation hit. It doesn't make sense to buy a luxury car either, whether new or used; they usually use more fuel, the fuel they do use is 10¢/L more than 87 octane, they require more maintenance and maintenance itself is more expensive. Same goes with pickup trucks, SUVs, etc.

What makes "financial sense" is a three-year-old compact or subcompact car. Anything more is pissing money down the drain.

That Infiniti of yours makes no "financial sense": you bought it because you wanted it. That's really all the reason anyone needs to buy anything. I fail to see why one has to crunch the numbers on fuel cost and upfront costs over a comparable gasoline model when considering a diesel, as if saving some money is the only reason to buy one. If you really wanted to save money you wouldn't buy a car at all unless you absolutely needed one, and even then unless you require a truck for work or whatever you shouldn't buy anything more than some Toyota or Hyundai A-to-B appliance.

[veeman]

i'm not really talking about overall automotive financial sense.  yes a subcompact is cheaper than a luxury car and a used car is cheaper than a new car, but a luxury car is much nicer to drive than a subcompact and an equivalent model new car is much nicer to drive than the equivalent model used car.  whether the price difference is worth it or not, is an individual decision.

how is driving the vw jetta or passat tdi "nicer" than their gas counterparts.  how is driving the mercedes blue-tec "nicer" than its gas counterpart.  what advantage does it convey you other than being "different".  it doesn't have a better ride.  you get more mileage but does that outweigh upfront extra costs?  you can go farther between fill-ups.  that's worth something.  that's "nicer."

[SVT666]

wat

Holy crapola dude, I think the difference here is 5¢. It's often 5¢ or more the other way, too!


I really don't like this "financial sense" argument. If we're talking "financial sense" here then by definition there is no point buying a new car at all, ever: better to buy used and let someone else take the depreciation hit. It doesn't make sense to buy a luxury car either, whether new or used; they usually use more fuel, the fuel they do use is 10¢/L more than 87 octane, they require more maintenance and maintenance itself is more expensive. Same goes with pickup trucks, SUVs, etc.

What makes "financial sense" is a three-year-old compact or subcompact car. Anything more is pissing money down the drain.

That Infiniti of yours makes no "financial sense": you bought it because you wanted it. That's really all the reason anyone needs to buy anything. I fail to see why one has to crunch the numbers on fuel cost and upfront costs over a comparable gasoline model when considering a diesel, as if saving some money is the only reason to buy one. If you really wanted to save money you wouldn't buy a car at all unless you absolutely needed one, and even then unless you require a truck for work or whatever you shouldn't buy anything more than some Toyota or Hyundai A-to-B appliance.

I think you are missing my point.  This is a question of a diesel vs gas in the same car.

[93JC]

I got your point, my point is that every engine option is a balance of power, fuel economy and price. People here are making all sorts of generalizations about diesel engines themselves which I think is just silly because the sample size of diesel engines in the US is very small.

A Jetta gasser can be expected to average around 28 mpg (23 city, 33 hwy) and a diesel 36 mpg (30/42). The difference is price is $2,725. The average price of gasoline is $3.357/gal, the average for diesel is $3.927.

If you drive 15,000 miles per year you would expect to use 535.71 gal of gasoline or 416.67 gal of diesel. The cost difference is $162.12 in favour of the diesel. Bam, there you go, you should buy the diesel. The $2,725 upfront cost difference is a red herring: the future value of the diesel when you decide to sell it will be commensurately higher than the equivalent gas model.

[2o6]

You guys like to harp on not making sweeping generalizations, but this is your worst one yet. You can compare all diesels to all gas models. Shit exists in both categories.

[Onslaught]

Don't forget the smell. I can't fucking stand the smell of diesel.

[GoCougs]

Don't forget the smell. I can't fucking stand the smell of diesel.

Diesels can be indicted and rejected on this and this alone. Diesel fuel itself is a disaster - smelly, slow to evaporate, and just LOOK at the greazy mess that is the average diesel fuel pump.