Ferrari LaFerrari

[SVT666]

So how exactly did the Nurburgring ruin cars?  ...this'll be good.

Because now the focus is on lap times and not driver enjoyment.  Believe me, I don't want a BRZ or a Miata because they are way too under powered for my liking, but I would rather have a car like a Mustang GT or Boss 302, Porsche Cayman, BMW M3, or the like rather than a LaFerrari, MP4-12C, or Aventador any day of the week. 

[MrH]

The Nurburgring is the pinnacle of automotive enjoyment.  It punishes cars that are too stiffly sprung.  It's the most difficult track in the world, and also the most representative of what every day drivers will see.  It's not silky smooth.  It's not dead flat.  It's the hands which help mold the best cars for on road enjoyment. If something can withstand the wreck that is the Carousel and still put power down, the pothole-ridden streets of Detroit are cake.  It's the mecca of the car world.

By saying it's the worst thing to happen to cars, you're just trying to be rebellious for the sake of rebelling.  Either that or you have no clue what you speak of, and just like to recite Top Gear hyperbole.  Either way, it's a stupid thing to say.

[SVT666]

The Nurburgring is the pinnacle of automotive enjoyment.  It punishes cars that are too stiffly sprung.  It's the hands which help mold the best cars for on road enjoyment. If something can withstand the wreck that is the Carousel and still put power down, the pothole-ridden of Detroit are cake.  It's the mecca of the car world.

By saying it's the worst thing to happen to cars, you're just trying to be rebellious for the sake of rebelling.  Either that or you have no clue what you speak of, and just like to recite Top Gear hyperbole.  Either way, it's a stupid thing to say.

Viper ACR
Corvette Z06
911 GT2 RS
911 GT3 RS
Nissan GT-R
Lexus LF-A

These are some of the fastest (Viper ACR being the fastest) production cars to ever go around the Ring.  They are all very stiffly sprung and on normal roads suffer from rough ride quality.

[MrH]

Way to ignore my entire point

[SVT666]

Way to ignore my entire point

Believe me, one of the things on my bucket list is to drive the Nurburgring, and I'm amazed at how fast some cars can get around the track, but making a car go around a track the fastest does not mean it's a better driver's car than something much slower that you can have more fun with on public roads.  The LaFerrari and cars like it are nowhere near as much fun as an M3 or even your car on public roads.

[MrH]

And being a better's driver car is not negatively correlated with lap times. 

And you have NO IDEA how much fun a LaFerrari is.  It's beyond stupid to act like you do.  If you're really that interested in driver involvement, why do you drive a G35, and lust for a Mustang?  Neither are especially strong examples of "driver's cars".  Just reeks of hypocrisy.

[GoCougs]

I think the Nurburgring is the worst thing to happen to cars.  Capability trumps driver interaction now.

So the logical counterpoint question is, Then what direction are performance cars; esp. the mega buck superstars; supposed to take? Drag racing? Top speed? Radical design?

[MrH]

So the logical counterpoint question is, Then what direction are performance cars; esp. the mega buck superstars; supposed to take? Drag racing? Top speed? Radical design?

Manual transmission, brown, diesel, station wagons.  That's what Ferrari should be making!  And it should be from the 80's.  Not allowed to make new cars.

[SVT666]

And being a better's driver car is not negatively correlated with lap times. 

Higher the limits = less fun on public roads.  Not always, but nearly always. 

And you have NO IDEA how much fun a LaFerrari is.  It's beyond stupid to act like you do. 

A LaFerrari is going to be as exciting to drive at 2 tenths as your car at 8 tenths?  Riiiiiiiight.  Go fuck yourself asshole.

If you're really that interested in driver involvement, why do you drive a G35,

Uhhh, G37 Sport.  It's more fun than the BMW I drove and had better steering.

and lust for a Mustang?

Mustang isn't perfect, but it's a helluva lot more fun than most cars on the road.

Neither are especially strong examples of "driver's cars".  Just reeks of hypocrisy.

Sure they are.  G37 is one of the best performance sedans (and IMO was the best in 2009, which is the year of car I was shopping for and comparing to).  The 2010+ Mustang GT/Boss 302 is most definitely a driver's car and is awesome fun on public roads.  Fun trumps lap times for me.

[SVT666]

So the logical counterpoint question is, Then what direction are performance cars; esp. the mega buck superstars; supposed to take? Drag racing? Top speed? Radical design?

Faster is great, but raising the limits does make a car less fun on public roads.  To argue that is stupid.  I would like to see Ferrari and company to make pure driving machines that are all about driving enjoyment, and fuck lap times.  Porsche Boxster/Cayman are a great example of what I'm talking about.  A 300 hp BRZ would be almost perfect.

[Cookie Monster]

Strong words from a guy who's never driven and likely never will drive the car.

Yes, I agree that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast rather than a fast car slow, but that doesn't mean that the LaFerrari would be necessarily boring on the road, or that the Nurburgring ruins cars. Cougs brings up a great point. For Ferrari to build a car like this and then say "LOL fuck lap times!" would be completely against the point of the car. It's a hypercar, what else do you think it's supposed to do?

[SVT666]

Strong words from a guy who's never driven and likely never will drive the car.

Sorry.  I guess nobody should have an opinion about any car they have never driven.  What a boring forum this would be.  Oh sorry, I shouldn't say it would be boring since I have never experienced CarSPIN without any discussion around cars we haven't driven.

Yes, I agree that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast rather than a fast car slow, but that doesn't mean that the LaFerrari would be necessarily boring on the road, or that the Nurburgring ruins cars. Cougs brings up a great point. For Ferrari to build a car like this and then say "LOL fuck lap times!" would be completely against the point of the car. It's a hypercar, what else do you think it's supposed to do?

I never said the LaFerrari should be anything other than it is.  I just said it would be boring compared to other cars that have much lower limits on public roads and that's why (even if I won the lottery) I wouldn't buy a car that extreme.

[GoCougs]

Faster is great, but raising the limits does make a car less fun on public roads.  To argue that is stupid.  I would like to see Ferrari and company to make pure driving machines that are all about driving enjoyment, and fuck lap times.  Porsche Boxster/Cayman are a great example of what I'm talking about.  A 300 hp BRZ would be almost perfect.

F355 vs. 328i? Fox body Mustang vs. S197? C4 vs. C7?

Digging in your heals a bit too much I think...

[Raza]

Strong words from a guy who's never driven and likely never will drive the car.

Yes, I agree that it's more fun to drive a slow car fast rather than a fast car slow, but that doesn't mean that the LaFerrari would be necessarily boring on the road, or that the Nurburgring ruins cars. Cougs brings up a great point. For Ferrari to build a car like this and then say "LOL fuck lap times!" would be completely against the point of the car. It's a hypercar, what else do you think it's supposed to do?

You guys act like everyone has to like this car or cars like it.  I agree, this is what Ferrari set out to accomplish and they did.  It's an insane car.  I just don't find it particularly interesting.  Neither does Craig.  I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to accept; accessible cars (in price, capability, et al) are more appealing to some than hypercars. 

[Raza]

F355 vs. 328i? Fox body Mustang vs. S197? C4 vs. C7?

Digging in your heals a bit too much I think...

I think it's fair to say that it's impossible to look at one characteristic to determine whether or not a car will be fun.  A BRZ has higher limits than a Smart, I'm sure, but it's most likely more fun.  A Genesis Coupe V6 probably has higher limits than my Z4, for example, but I can tell you without a doubt it's not even close to as fun as my Z4. 

[Cookie Monster]

You guys act like everyone has to like this car or cars like it.  I agree, this is what Ferrari set out to accomplish and they did.  It's an insane car.  I just don't find it particularly interesting.  Neither does Craig.  I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to accept; accessible cars (in price, capability, et al) are more appealing to some than hypercars. 

Hey, I don't particularly like it either, but more because I'm not a fan of electric/hybrid stuff, but I think just making a blanket statement saying it's "boring" flat out, without there even being any tests or reviews about it, is kinda weird. These hypercars don't excite me either, but I certainly don't think they'll be boring...

[SVT666]

Hey, I don't particularly like it either, but more because I'm not a fan of electric/hybrid stuff, but I think just making a blanket statement saying it's "boring" flat out, without there even being any tests or reviews about it, is kinda weird. These hypercars don't excite me either, but I certainly don't think they'll be boring...

...on public fucking roads.  Especially compared to cars with much lower limits.

[SVT666]

F355 vs. 328i? Fox body Mustang vs. S197? C4 vs. C7?

Digging in your heals a bit too much I think...

Shitty cars are shitty cars regardless of speed.  But did you really just compare one of the best mid engine cars ever to a sedan?

[Raza]

Hey, I don't particularly like it either, but more because I'm not a fan of electric/hybrid stuff, but I think just making a blanket statement saying it's "boring" flat out, without there even being any tests or reviews about it, is kinda weird. These hypercars don't excite me either, but I certainly don't think they'll be boring...

He does have a point.  High performance cars are built to excel in high performance situations; when exploiting them fully, I'm sure they're a blast, but when pootling, it's going to be hard to say that it's as communicative or fun as when really pushing it.  Take a car like an Elise.  It's not a supercar or a hypercar, but it is without a doubt the most fun car I have ever driven--absolutely including the Ferrari 430.  It's nowhere near as capable, and if you were to try to modify it to match the speed of a 430, I'm sure it wouldn't be as stable at high speeds.  There's low speed handling and high speed handling and a different set of feel for different ranges in the spectrum. 

[SVT666]

 

[NomisR]

When I head over to Beverly Hills, I see bunch of different "super cars" cruising up and down Rodeo Dr, some one them, going up and down that street over and over and over again... it seems like the drivers are having a lot of fun doing it at 35mph...

And then going to one of the local cars and coffee and the drives afterwards in Malibu Canyons or what not.. yeah, I don't need the tracks to have fun in the car.   I think you just live in a place where the roads aren't as much fun to drive...

[SVT666]

When I head over to Beverly Hills, I see bunch of different "super cars" cruising up and down Rodeo Dr, some one them, going up and down that street over and over and over again... it seems like the drivers are having a lot of fun doing it at 35mph...

And then going to one of the local cars and coffee and the drives afterwards in Malibu Canyons or what not.. yeah, I don't need the tracks to have fun in the car.   I think you just live in a place where the roads aren't as much fun to drive...

If you only knew.  I've got incredibly fun roads here.  I live in the BC mountains.  The most fun I have ever had driving on these roads was in my SVT Focus because the limits were so much more achievable than in the G37.  THE G is still tons of fun, but I have to go a lot faster to achieve the same level of fun.

[Raza]

When I head over to Beverly Hills, I see bunch of different "super cars" cruising up and down Rodeo Dr, some one them, going up and down that street over and over and over again... it seems like the drivers are having a lot of fun doing it at 35mph...

And then going to one of the local cars and coffee and the drives afterwards in Malibu Canyons or what not.. yeah, I don't need the tracks to have fun in the car.   I think you just live in a place where the roads aren't as much fun to drive...

Was it the car/the badge/the looks/the envy that made it fun or the driving experience?

[12,000 RPM]

The Nurburgring is the pinnacle of automotive enjoyment.  It punishes cars that are too stiffly sprung.  It's the most difficult track in the world, and also the most representative of what every day drivers will see.  It's not silky smooth.  It's not dead flat.  It's the hands which help mold the best cars for on road enjoyment. If something can withstand the wreck that is the Carousel and still put power down, the pothole-ridden streets of Detroit are cake.  It's the mecca of the car world.

By saying it's the worst thing to happen to cars, you're just trying to be rebellious for the sake of rebelling.  Either that or you have no clue what you speak of, and just like to recite Top Gear hyperbole.  Either way, it's a stupid thing to say.

No its not. Put it like this. Would you rather have your BRZ as it is or an electric Camry w/a CVT that could lap the ring 20 seconds faster? And lol @ calling anyone who dismisses Ring times as some Jalopnik fan boy... quoting Ring times and citing them as proof of subjective superiority is the height of internet fanboyism.

Plus like any track the ring is just one track biased to certain balances of power and handling... balances that might not be to everyone's particular tastes. Ring times are in no way some kind of subjective be all end all.

[SVT666]

The Ring is a very high speed track.  There are very very few low speed corners or slower sections to it at all. 

[12,000 RPM]

I think it's fair to say that it's impossible to look at one characteristic to determine whether or not a car will be fun.

Not if you are GoCougs LOL!

He does have a point.  High performance cars are built to excel in high performance situations; when exploiting them fully, I'm sure they're a blast, but when pootling, it's going to be hard to say that it's as communicative or fun as when really pushing it.  Take a car like an Elise.  It's not a supercar or a hypercar, but it is without a doubt the most fun car I have ever driven--absolutely including the Ferrari 430.  It's nowhere near as capable, and if you were to try to modify it to match the speed of a 430, I'm sure it wouldn't be as stable at high speeds.  There's low speed handling and high speed handling and a different set of feel for different ranges in the spectrum. 

Exactly. Once the WOW IM DRIVING A FERRARI shock wore off I was a little disappointed too. One thing that factors in that nobody will admit to is fear. Even a well set up super car is still scary. Whereas something small, slowish, predictable but engaging (like Craig's Focus) can be more fun to drive across the whole spectrum, as you aren't SCARED of the car biting you.

[SVT666]

That's true.  I was scared of the GT-R when I drove it and that was a relatively controlled environment.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I think we should just all bite our tongue for the moment. Lets wait until we've all head the opportunity to drive the car in gran turismo 6 before we pass judgement on it.

[hotrodalex]

I think we should just all bite our tongue for the moment. Lets wait until we've all head the opportunity to drive the car in gran turismo 6 before we pass judgement on it.

Dude, half of us might be dead by then.

[NomisR]

If you only knew.  I've got incredibly fun roads here.  I live in the BC mountains.  The most fun I have ever had driving on these roads was in my SVT Focus because the limits were so much more achievable than in the G37.  THE G is still tons of fun, but I have to go a lot faster to achieve the same level of fun.

I think it really depends on the car and how willing you are in pushing it.   With my Elise, while I can say that it's no fun at all sitting in stop and go traffic, this would probably apply to any car regardless of what it is.  But at the same time, i have just as much fun driving the mountain roads as I do on the tracks.  And actually, I had more fun at a low speed track which is more similar to a street than a high speed track. 

But then again, the Lotus isn't a Ferrari but it's a car that's setup for more track than street driving.  So ..