Test drive: Tesla Model S

[Catman]

I'm speaking to electric cars in general. Volt vs say a similar sized car. I think the technology is cool but you need to consider how the electricity is generated as well.

[VTEC_Inside]

So you're saying it wont' work for you because you know you're too stupid to charge it every night when you get home and HAVE to have way more range than you'll ever use just to cover your forgetful ass.

That's not the fault of the car.

What if you get to the end of your gas tank, and forget to get gas on the way home and run out on your way to the gas station the next day? Sounds like something a forgetful person could easily do. Would that be the fault of the GAS powered car if you did that?

My range changed by less than a mile in sub freezing weather. The Teslas that came across the country in the winter to do the DC to Boston run in freezing weather made it no problems. I don't see why people are thinking they will be "fucked' in colder weather if you have SLIGHTLY less range than normal?

Wow...

TurboDan pretty much covered anything I could say to that.

Only thing missed was the range unpredictability. I don't HAVE to have way more range but I'd like to have the same range in the morning that I did when I got home at night.

As was mentioned, if all else fails I can fill up at 4 different stations less than 5min from my house in under 5min.

FWIW, I usually fill up on the way home from work if I'm near 1/4 tank or lower just so I don't have to think about it on the way to work or if I want to go somewhere.

[afty]

For those of us who have chargers at work, you could totally do away with fuel costs. And maintenance is cheaper because there's no engine to maintain. Then there's the access to the carpool lane here in CA.  There are a number of reasons that electric cars make sense for some fraction of the population.

[TurboDan]

For those of us who have chargers at work, you could totally do away with fuel costs. And maintenance is cheaper because there's no engine to maintain. Then there's the access to the carpool lane here in CA.  There are a number of reasons that electric cars make sense for some fraction of the population.

I wasn't trying to say that EVs are poor choices. I actually like what Tesla is doing... a lot. But the recharging issue has to be solved before they will be widely adopted - both the availability of charging stations and the time it takes to recharge. We put a man on the moon, so at some point I think we can figure out how to quickly charge a battery.

[Morris Minor]

2013 is to electric automobile infrastructure as 1908 was to the petroleum spirit automobile. It's a bit of a white knuckles deal wondering where your next refill's going to come from.

[SJ_GTI]

I'm speaking to electric cars in general. Volt vs say a similar sized car. I think the technology is cool but you need to consider how the electricity is generated as well.

Not sure the Volt is a fair comparison. The Volt can be electric only, but also has a gas engine and all the additional technology required to synch the two technologies. The Volt would tend to be more expensive simply because it is equipped so that it can be all things to all people (relative to commuting).

That being said, I do believe electric cars are going to tend to be more expensive simply because they are more rare. If someone was manufacturing ~10 million electric cars a year versus ~10 thousand the cost per unit would be much lower. Unfortunately there isn't really enough demand to support that level of manufacturing capacity at this time. It may or may not develop over time though. Clearly Tesla is hoping the demand will develop.

[Submariner]

2013 is to electric automobile infrastructure as 1908 was to the petroleum spirit automobile. It's a bit of a white knuckles deal wondering where your next refill's going to come from.

Yeah, but to be fair, we already have a built out electrical grid.  In fact, electricity allows you to "refill" anywhere, not just at a gas station.  Still, until recharge times are close to where they are for "refill" times, I don't see EV catching on. 

[hotrodalex]

Yeah, but to be fair, we already have a built out electrical grid.  In fact, electricity allows you to "refill" anywhere, not just at a gas station.  Still, until recharge times are close to where they are for "refill" times, I don't see EV catching on. 

Quick-change battery packs FTW.

[Catman]

Those free charging stations aren't going to stay free.  Someone's paying for that power.

[Cookie Monster]

Those free charging stations aren't going to stay free.  Someone's paying for that power.

Yeah, they're just incentives to get an electric car. Considering the relatively slow uptake of electric cars, though, I can see it being free for a while.

[Lebowski]

Those free charging stations aren't going to stay free.  Someone's paying for that power.

Does any one have any real apples to apples (excluding both subsidies for electric and taxes on gasoline) cost difference figures per mile driven?

[Catman]

Would like to see that myself.  I was wondering on battery replacement and disposal costs too.

[red_shift]

Not imposing ridiculous taxes on something does NOT equal a subsidy.    not this argument again.

Tax deductions. Subsidies. Call them whatever, they exist for a myriad of things. You probably already benefit from some, most likely will take advantage of more as you grow older.

[CALL_911]

You're still paying for those subsidies though....

[TurboDan]

You're still paying for those subsidies though....

I'm not totally against subsidizing the research behind new technology, but subsidizing the cost of the final product for the people who buy it tends to bug me a bit.

That said, I don't consider a tax credit to be a subsidy. Not collecting tax money is different than expending tax money.

[Speed_Racer]

Those free charging stations aren't going to stay free.  Someone's paying for that power.

Won't our electric costs eventually go up as well? If everyone's charging their electric cars at home, wouldn't we be back at square one with gas prices rising because Shell or Exxon can charge ever increasing costs per gallon w/o us (the driving public) changing our habits?

I could see the same happening w/ electric (Texaco Electric?). Electricity isn't just magically created in your wall socket.

[Catman]

Won't our electric costs eventually go up as well? If everyone's charging their electric cars at home, wouldn't we be back at square one with gas prices rising because Shell or Exxon can charge ever increasing costs per gallon w/o us (the driving public) changing our habits?

I could see the same happening w/ electric (Texaco Electric?). Electricity isn't just magically created in your wall socket.

All those coal plants churning out pollution to support our dependence on electric vehicles! 

[red_shift]

Deleted

[red_shift]

All those coal plants churning out pollution to support our dependence on electric vehicles! 

All those plants already exist, with not much usage at night. EVs will allow timed charging, using some of that bandwidth. Sure, an all EV world, which may or may not happen, will mean more electric plants, but building new plants based on dirty fuels won't be desirable, with alternatives like nuclear, wind, solar, wave, and even natural gas which is cleaner burning than coal.

[red_shift]

I'm not totally against subsidizing the research behind new technology, but subsidizing the cost of the final product for the people who buy it tends to bug me a bit.

That said, I don't consider a tax credit to be a subsidy. Not collecting tax money is different than expending tax money.

EVs receive ax credits. Also Tesla received loans, not subsidies.

[ChrisV]

I'm speaking to electric cars in general. Volt vs say a similar sized car. I think the technology is cool but you need to consider how the electricity is generated as well.

In the case of the Volt, as an owner, there is no "offsetting the price of admission." The lease rates are about the same as a standard car of the same equipment level. In my case, the lease cost was about the same as the loan payments on my Mustang, but the insurance dropped and the cost of "fuel" dropped off incredibly. A leaf or a Focus electric woudl be similarly cheap. For teh Tesla, youre comparing it to a similarly equipped 5 series or the like and it still has a lower operating cost vs the gas powered car it competes against.

[ChrisV]

All those coal plants churning out pollution to support our dependence on electric vehicles! 

Actually, again, single central pollution sources that are regulated to be clean are cleaner than amillion individual point sources (cars). And power plants get cleaner every year, while individual cars get dirtier every year. And EVs aren't tied to one "fuel" source, as they can take advantage of every improvement in power generation, from cleaner coal plants to NG plants, to nuclear, hydro, solar and wind power, all without changing the car itself. Imagine trying to make your gasoine car progressively cleaner as you own it... Simply put, studies have shown that well to wheel, EVs are an order of magnitude cleaner that ICE cars, even the most "efficient" ICE cars.

[ChrisV]

Won't our electric costs eventually go up as well? If everyone's charging their electric cars at home, wouldn't we be back at square one with gas prices rising because Shell or Exxon can charge ever increasing costs per gallon w/o us (the driving public) changing our habits?

I could see the same happening w/ electric (Texaco Electric?). Electricity isn't just magically created in your wall socket.

Currently, you can get on off-peak plans that reduce your electric rates for off peak usage (later at night). If more people dfid that, it actually makes teh power plants more efficient, as they don't have to ramp down at night and up again in the morning.

[ChrisV]

Would like to see that myself.  I was wondering on battery replacement and disposal costs too.

Battery replacement and disposal will be completely different in 10 years when the first of these batteris MIGHT need replacement. Especially as various companies are springing up to recycle the batteries even now. Battery replacement may end up costing considerably LESS than typical engine or transmission rebuild costs for gas powered cars.

[Catman]

It will certainly be interesting to see how this pans out over time.

[MrH]

Tax deductions. Subsidies. Call them whatever, they exist for a myriad of things. You probably already benefit from some, most likely will take advantage of more as you grow older.

I might have misunderstood your post, my apologies.  I thought you were saying that the lack of taxes on gasoline powered cars (like those that exist in europe), means that the gasoline cars are being subsidized over the diesel.

[red_shift]

Mr H,

Believe me, I am against tax loop holes and other kinds shenanigans I have seen several CEOs I talk to use for their businesses ( I am the CEO of a small startup, myself). I try to do what I can to maintain an honest lifestyle, keeping business things and private things strictly separated. ( believe me, when you start a business, there are all kinds of things you can take advantage of, to avoid taxes)

However, history is filled with examples of new and old technology being helped out by government money in the form of loans, subsidies and what nots.

I don't know if Tesla will be a success, little early to tell. But if 20000 Model S s sold/reserved are any indication, there seems to be traction here, based a lot on the unique driving characteristics of the Model S type of EV (skateboard architecture)

Results speak for themselves, don't they? I mean a venerable stalwart like BMW with decades of car building experience going head to head with the M5 which is their best, against a scrappy little baby like Tesla, and we have people unabashedly admitting that Model S is a better drive. ( not just talking about pure 0-60 times here, which is a strong point of the Tesla, incidentally)

If there is ever a case for the American made automobile, bursting with innovation and promise, this is it. I don't choose my cars lightly, I love to drive, and to dethrone my Bimmer is not easy. That the Model S did it so easily, was in fact a bit saddening! I almost hated the Model S because it was too good! If you can believe that.

Anyway, I am done here. People will always believe what they will, until they experience this car for themselves. So be it.

[GoCougs]

EVs receive ax credits. Also Tesla received loans, not subsidies.

A government loan to an unloanable entity is a de facto subsidy though.

[GoCougs]

It will certainly be interesting to see how this pans out over time.

The second government decides to stop subsidizing EVs will go away.

[red_shift]

A government loan to an unloanable entity is a de facto subsidy

A government loan to an unloanable entity is a de facto subsidy though.

Every loan is a gamble. Nothing is guaranteed. If everyone was as pessimistic as you, there would be no ventures, no venture capitalists, not to speak of many other things that have been created thus far on this planet.