Test drive: Tesla Model S

[Eye of the Tiger]

Nuke the whales!

[GoCougs]

Funny; you agree with the sentiment, but we have different views on the Volt.  I don't even consider the Volt and EV, I consider it the zenith of hybrid technology/implementation.  I don't know enough about engines to say how much could be gained with current ICEs, but when you talk about post-fossil fuels, efficiency now delays that eventuality, but I don't understand why zero emission, abundant fuel engines aren't even being talked about anymore; fuel cells should be our future.

Or synthetic gasoline.  I feel like that could work.  We can clone sheep, genetically modify foods for longer growing seasons, and artificially create diamonds; why can't we synthesize gasoline? 

Why is it funny? I've always had the sentiment.

There is a ton of efficiency to be gained. Imagine a Civic with direct injection, a 12:1 compression ratio, CVT and 5-7 years' of materials advancement. That right there is a very liveable very capable 45-50 mpg car.

There is no delay, only demand. When the demand is forced you get really bad solutions like ethanol.

Anything grown is non-starter WRT fossil fuels as similar to EVs macro use is backtracking on environmental and cost impact. Fuel cells are DOA as a macro energy source.

Fossil fuels are both the cheapest and most environmentally friend macro fuel source as so much of the work is already done.

[red_shift]

Like I said in one of my earlier posts, EVs are not for everyone. (Some have ideological reasons, others more practical, but not un resolvable)

None of these arguments change the fact that the Model S out handles many cars in its class and some way above.

For me, this is a perfect car. Why? I have kids. We stop often on long journeys. My current customer has free EV charging. California is very friendly towards EVs. (Tax credits - yes, we rail against them while ignoring what we currently get from the govt, like the good ol citizens we all are, 2 years HOV lane usage, and every big company worth its salt offering free charging in their lots) California electricity is also much cleaner than many other coal burner states.

So, in summation, it's a effin great drivers car, none like it exist yet. :-)

Oh, just to make the tone sharper: it's your loss if you dont experience the car for yourself :-)

[GoCougs]

So why was the EV1 done before, and why did GM start the Volt project back in the reign of Bush II? Not for government handouts, but because the writing is on the wall. Oil is going to be harder and harder to get out of the ground, and more expensive to get out of the ground. We don't need to be tied to middle eastern dictators for our fuel requirements. But, the general public is too addicted to cheap oil. Government created the cheap fuel mess in the US, too, BTW.

I'd rather be prepared before it becomes too late rather than waiting until it's too late and then trying to adapt and overcome. We dont need more and better ways of using up oil for transportation.

Not too long ago, electric cars looked like these:

<pic snip>

Now you have Volts and Teslas and cars that are real cars, not tiny penalty boxes on wheels. And EV can be fun:

<pic snip>

Yes, charging them takes a bit at this moment, but for the majority of drivers, in the majority of situations, even that is a non-issue. I've gone all month in my Volt on pure electricity and I've never had to recharge on the fly. Chrging it every day gives me a "full tank" every morning, and it's no more onerous (or time consuming) than charging a phone.

Government bets on tech all the time to get it off the ground. We're discussing this using the result of one of those bets. I'd rather have the government doing that than paying for welfare babies, I can tell you that much.

There's lots of oil and fossil fuels, and oil is global commodity market (and primarily because ME dictators need to sell us oil far more than we need to buy it from them). Cheap fuel is good; in fact the best thing that has happened to modern Man actually.

Let demand drive the market which technologies to chase. When government gets in the business the results are bad - lolz carbon credits, ethanol, Solyndra, etc. The market, if allowed to work properly, will figure out the best overall solution. What that is I'm not sure - but I'm sure it's not EVs or hybrids.

[afty]

Nuke the whales!

<shrug> Gotta nuke something.

[VTEC_Inside]

Yes, charging them takes a bit at this moment, but for the majority of drivers, in the majority of situations, even that is a non-issue. I've gone all month in my Volt on pure electricity and I've never had to recharge on the fly. Chrging it every day gives me a "full tank" every morning, and it's no more onerous (or time consuming) than charging a phone.

I forget to charge my phone quite a bit. Then I just charge it in the car on the way to work.

Pure EV is not for me. The range uncertainty is my first big problem with them. I know for a fact that I'm going to get at least 500kms out of the tank in my car, period. I couldn't take a 100km variation in range depending on weather. Then of course the re-charge time, given a fixed expected range, this would be easier to plan for but still inconvenient.

[VTEC_Inside]

Why is it funny? I've always had the sentiment.

There is a ton of efficiency to be gained. Imagine a Civic with direct injection, a 12:1 compression ratio, CVT and 5-7 years' of materials advancement. That right there is a very liveable very capable 45-50 mpg car.

There is no delay, only demand. When the demand is forced you get really bad solutions like ethanol.

Anything grown is non-starter WRT fossil fuels as similar to EVs macro use is backtracking on environmental and cost impact. Fuel cells are DOA as a macro energy source.

Fossil fuels are both the cheapest and most environmentally friend macro fuel source as so much of the work is already done.

I'd like to see fuel cells work, but...

As for efficiency. I offer up the fact that I get the same mileage (pretty much) in my CSX that I did in my Accord, despite the fact that the car weighs at least 400-500lbs more, and has about 60 more hp that I tap into regularly. That's technology for ya...

If newer materials can bring the weight of the average sedan back a fair bit under 3000lbs while ICE and transmission efficiency continue to improve, well...

While I'm at it, another problem I have with re-charging EVs is where the power comes from. It may be cheaper for the end user, but what about everyone else? Seems like a pass the buck scenario unless I'm missing something.

[Raza]

Why is it funny? I've always had the sentiment.

There is a ton of efficiency to be gained. Imagine a Civic with direct injection, a 12:1 compression ratio, CVT and 5-7 years' of materials advancement. That right there is a very liveable very capable 45-50 mpg car.

There is no delay, only demand. When the demand is forced you get really bad solutions like ethanol.

Anything grown is non-starter WRT fossil fuels as similar to EVs macro use is backtracking on environmental and cost impact. Fuel cells are DOA as a macro energy source.

Fossil fuels are both the cheapest and most environmentally friend macro fuel source as so much of the work is already done.

Not funny ha-ha, just odd that we agree in principle, but not necessarily application. 

[SVT666]

I forget to charge my phone quite a bit. Then I just charge it in the car on the way to work.

Pure EV is not for me. The range uncertainty is my first big problem with them. I know for a fact that I'm going to get at least 500kms out of the tank in my car, period. I couldn't take a 100km variation in range depending on weather. Then of course the re-charge time, given a fixed expected range, this would be easier to plan for but still inconvenient.

Me too.  If I had a pure EV I would get fucked in the winter.

[Onslaught]

Saw one drive by my at lunch Friday. Damn fine looking car.

[AutobahnSHO]

1- Someone needs to invent an extension cord with a lockable cover- and lockable outlet on the car (so someone can't unplug your cord) for apartment dwellers.
2- I could deal with a 50mile range everyday. 40miles would be pushing it, I would have to be too careful with driving to lunch or whatever.
3- for longer trips renting a car wouldn't be that bad...

[AutobahnSHO]

The market, if allowed to work properly, will figure out the best overall solution. What that is I'm not sure - but I'm sure it's not EVs or hybrids.

It has. In europe and the rest of the world. It's called small-engined diesels.

[ChrisV]

It has. In europe and the rest of the world. It's called small-engined diesels.

Actually, government regulations brought about small engine diesels in Europe. Free market didn't do it. Taxes on displacement, taxes on gasoline, etc.

[red_shift]

+1 ChrisV.

Like I said, we love to rail against govt subsidies. Just not the ones we currently enjoy.

[GoCougs]

There's a reason why the freest auto market in the world has by and large shunned passenger car diesels. With relatively low car prices, relatively low taxes, relatively low fuel prices, less regulation, and the availability of a bevy of fantastic MPG-friendly plebeian cars (*cough* which Europe ignores *cough*), there's pretty much no reason to buy an oil burner in the US.

[MrH]

+1 ChrisV.

Like I said, we love to rail against govt subsidies. Just not the ones we currently enjoy.

Not imposing ridiculous taxes on something does NOT equal a subsidy.    not this argument again.

[ChrisV]

I forget to charge my phone quite a bit. Then I just charge it in the car on the way to work.

So you're saying it wont' work for you because you know you're too stupid to charge it every night when you get home and HAVE to have way more range than you'll ever use just to cover your forgetful ass.

That's not the fault of the car.

What if you get to the end of your gas tank, and forget to get gas on the way home and run out on your way to the gas station the next day? Sounds like something a forgetful person could easily do. Would that be the fault of the GAS powered car if you did that?


My range changed by less than a mile in sub freezing weather. The Teslas that came across the country in the winter to do the DC to Boston run in freezing weather made it no problems. I don't see why people are thinking they will be "fucked' in colder weather if you have SLIGHTLY less range than normal?

[Cookie Monster]

I want to test drive a Tesla so badly. It's fast as hell and being silently whisked around would be so eery but cool.

It would be perfect for my kind of commute (40 mile round trip full of boring highways).

[TurboDan]

So you're saying it wont' work for you because you know you're too stupid to charge it every night when you get home and HAVE to have way more range than you'll ever use just to cover your forgetful ass.

Jesus, that's kinda hostile to the dude.

And besides, he has a point. You forget to plug your car in before you go to bed then suddenly you can't go to work the next morning. I could see it happening to myself, and I don't think I'm a stupid person. The overriding point here is that the charging issue is just that... an issue. And how do you know how much range someone will use? Suppose I want to visit one of my relatives who lives up in Massachusetts. I can't do it. Just plain can't. So then I'm stuck with renting a car or figuring out another option.

What if you get to the end of your gas tank, and forget to get gas on the way home and run out on your way to the gas station the next day? Sounds like something a forgetful person could easily do. Would that be the fault of the GAS powered car if you did that?

There's a big difference there. If I'm near empty on gas, I can drive to any one of 10 gas stations within a five minute drive from my house and be filled up in less than 5 minutes. The problem with EVs isn't so much the range in and of itself, but the hassle of recharging. If it could be done in a few minutes time and charging stations were widely available, that would be awesome. But it takes hours to recharge and the places where it can be charged are few and far between outside of your home.

[ifcar]

I don't think there's any question that electric vehicles are great for certain drivers, doable in a pinch for others, and unworkable for others. It's just which camp makes up the majority that's in question. ChrisV, the particular post that you called out seemed to be pretty clearly saying he would not be a good EV candidate -- which is a perfectly reasonable comment, because many people undoubtedly aren't.

[Morris Minor]

Actually, government regulations brought about small engine diesels in Europe. Free market didn't do it. Taxes on displacement, taxes on gasoline, etc.

Poor them.

[Morris Minor]

I saw my first Model S today. This was very exciting. It was in the parking lot of a local country club, (to which I am neither Jewish enough, nor nearly wealthy enough, to belong).

[Laconian]

I saw my first Model S today. This was very exciting. It was in the parking lot of a local country club, (to which I am neither Jewish enough, nor nearly wealthy enough, to belong).

They are stupendous to behold.

[Catman]

I wonder how much it would cost a month in electricity to charge a car every night?  Also, as these things become more common people will unplugging cars as a form of vandalism.  What if there's a power outage?  I guess no work and school!

[Laconian]

I wonder how much it would cost a month in electricity to charge a car every night?  Also, as these things become more common people will unplugging cars as a form of vandalism.  What if there's a power outage?  I guess no work and school!

IIRC a full charge costs on the order of a few bucks.

[Catman]

IIRC a full charge costs on the order of a few bucks.

Let's say $2 a day.  $60 a month. 

[Laconian]

Let's say $2 a day.  $60 a month. 

OK, fine.

And gas would be something like three or four hundred to cover an equivalent distance. Much more, if you compare a car that pulls as hard as an S.

[Cookie Monster]

I would love to spend $60 per month on fuel for transportation.

Right now I spend about $200-250 per month.

[Catman]

I would love to spend $60 per month on fuel for transportation.

Right now I spend about $200-250 per month.

Aren't you just offsetting the price of admission though?

[Cookie Monster]

Aren't you just offsetting the price of admission though?

How? It costs $60-70k (depending on the battery you get, unless you want the high performance one at ~$90k) which is similar to a BMW 550i. A 60kwh Tesla and a stripper 550i are the same price and optioned up the 550i will easily cost $70k, which is what the 80kwh battery version will cost you as well. The 550i is just a bit faster to 60 than the Tesla but I bet in any other acceleration test the Tesla will pull away from the BMW. Both are also equally luxurious and the Tesla has a far, far less fuel consumption cost. I can't speak to maintenance cost and reliability, but it's not like you're paying $70k for a shitty electric penalty box. You are getting a luxury car that competes with other luxury cars in terms of performance and features, regardless of how it's powered.