Apparently Barney Fife lives in my neighborhood...

[GoCougs]

to attack the police officer and scrutinize everything about his personal life because he came and wrote a ticket?  give me a break.

Like I said, many if not the majority of people "overreact" to the system of traffic enforcement - we lie, cheat, scam, think of irrational ways to get back at the system, and otherwise have a general disrespect for a good portion of traffic enforcement. It's not practical to ask people to stop "overreacting." I will say though, in the current political climate WtP gladly vote for bigger government such that it is laughably irrational to expect traffic enforcement to lessen and/or realign with the will of WtP.

[dazzleman]

Like I said, many if not the majority of people "overreact" to the system of traffic enforcement - we lie, cheat, scam, think of irrational ways to get back at the system, and otherwise have a general disrespect for a good portion of traffic enforcement. It's not practical to ask people to stop "overreacting." I will say though, in the current political climate WtP gladly vote for bigger government such that it is laughably irrational to expect traffic enforcement to lessen and/or realign with the will of WtP.

Don't you think you're a little overwrought on this issue?  If anyone is to blame, it's the bus driver for making a bad complaint.

[MaxPower]

seriously dude, how would you like it if someone didn't like something you did at work so they came to your house to see if your cars were parked correctly?  I mean c'mon, do you even listen to youself?

[Soup DeVille]

seriously dude, how would you like it if someone didn't like something you did at work so they came to your house to see if your cars were parked correctly?  I mean c'mon, do you even listen to youself?

Of course he wouldn't like it. That's kind of the point.

[dazzleman]

Perhaps we should ask ourselves if the overreaction is warranted. By definition law that makes a good portion (if not most, in the case of traffic law) of the citizenry scofflaws is asking for overreaction. Ergo, traffic law needs to change to stop the overreaction.

I don't think it's most of the laws that are a problem.  There's nothing wrong with a law that says that you shouldn't pass a stopped school bus with lights flashing.  The problem is when it's enforced in such a way that people are expected to freeze every time they see a school bus at all, lights or not.  This seems like a case of overreach, assuming that Mike's rendition of the incident is accurate, on the bus driver's part.  The problem is not so much law enforcement but overzealous citizens, IMO.  I have seen a lot of these people myself.  They think that nobody should be allowed to drive down their street, and whatever speed people are going is too fast.  It's easy to blame the police, but it wasn't even a cop who witnessed this and gave Mike the ticket; he was just a messenger in this case.  The police are caught between the overzealous ninnies who think the world should stop because their child might be within 10 blocks of a car, and people who moan and bitch (often the same people, in different circumstances) when they get a citation they actually deserve.

The best thing to do is for Mike to go to court and cross examine the bus driver.  If he goes in with the attitude that you're projecting, he's sunk.  He needs to go in with the right attitude.

[dazzleman]

Of course he wouldn't like it. That's kind of the point.

Do you really think that's the right way to go -- to start harassing an LEO on personal matters because he delivered a complaint that originated from somebody else?  It seems a bit off as a response.

He should find out where the bus driver lives and go slash his tires....   It's never smart to mess with a cop where he lives.  They can find all sorts of ways to fuck you over.

[Soup DeVille]

Do you really think that's the right way to go -- to start harassing an LEO on personal matters because he delivered a complaint that originated from somebody else?  It seems a bit off as a response.

He should find out where the bus driver lives and go slash his tires....   It's never smart to mess with a cop where he lives.  They can find all sorts of ways to fuck you over.

Not at all, that was Dan's idea. I'm just explaining why somebody might do that. Plus, I'm amused at the thought that making a law officer obey the law is somehow harassing: if that's not proof we have too many piddly-assed laws on the books, I don't know what is.

[dazzleman]

Not at all, that was Dan's idea. I'm just explaining why somebody might do that. Plus, I'm amused at the thought that making a law officer obey the law is somehow harassing: if that's not proof we have too many piddly-assed laws on the books, I don't know what is.

There are way too many stupid laws.  But the law against passed a school bus with flashing lights really isn't one of them, if it is enforced properly.

I think Dan's idea was a bad one.

[GoCougs]

FWIW, I'd never advocate following Dan's suggestion if but for nothing else than it's asking for a whole pile of trouble. If the LEO were to find out he could easily make MrH's life hell if he wanted to. Life's too short for that kind of heavy drama.

Much of traffic enforcement is a whole pile of BS and everybody knows it. It's not going to change anytime soon and it's not going to change by following Dan's suggestion. The best tack, and best tack for a good happy life in general, is to MYOB - contest it, get a good traffic lawyer, and beat it.

[GoCougs]

Don't you think you're a little overwrought on this issue?  If anyone is to blame, it's the bus driver for making a bad complaint.

Maybe. In general so much time, value and resources are wasted on non-material traffic enforcement it's insanity IMO.

[GoCougs]

I don't think it's most of the laws that are a problem.  There's nothing wrong with a law that says that you shouldn't pass a stopped school bus with lights flashing.  The problem is when it's enforced in such a way that people are expected to freeze every time they see a school bus at all, lights or not.  This seems like a case of overreach, assuming that Mike's rendition of the incident is accurate, on the bus driver's part.  The problem is not so much law enforcement but overzealous citizens, IMO.  I have seen a lot of these people myself.  They think that nobody should be allowed to drive down their street, and whatever speed people are going is too fast.  It's easy to blame the police, but it wasn't even a cop who witnessed this and gave Mike the ticket; he was just a messenger in this case.  The police are caught between the overzealous ninnies who think the world should stop because their child might be within 10 blocks of a car, and people who moan and bitch (often the same people, in different circumstances) when they get a citation they actually deserve.

The best thing to do is for Mike to go to court and cross examine the bus driver.  If he goes in with the attitude that you're projecting, he's sunk.  He needs to go in with the right attitude.

My for OMG IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN tack to some law, and traffic law in specific, does color my commentary to some extent I'm sure.

If MrH goes to court himself he's sunk, or at least severely decreases his chances WRT a (dispassionate) traffic lawyer. Fighting traffic tickets on merit is a lost cause IMO.

[GoCougs]

seriously dude, how would you like it if someone didn't like something you did at work so they came to your house to see if your cars were parked correctly?  I mean c'mon, do you even listen to youself?

If what I did as a job compelled people to do that or want to do that, I'd get a new job or not have that job to begin with. Also, I park my cars properly .

[dazzleman]

My for OMG IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN tack to some law, and traffic law in specific, does color my commentary to some extent I'm sure.

If MrH goes to court himself he's sunk, or at least severely decreases his chances WRT a (dispassionate) traffic lawyer. Fighting traffic tickets on merit is a lost cause IMO.

Yes and no.  The bus driver is unlikely to show up, IMO.  It's a gamble, but I'm not convinced it's worth the money for a lawyer when I think the ticket is a bluff.  I liked your dual ticket story, but you spent well more on the lawyer than the fines wi ukd have cost you (albeit for offenses if which you were clearly guilty).

[bing_oh]

How is making sure  laws are enforced attacking a police officer?

is it my fault that there are all these laws on the books?

Oh, I'm sure you'd want the entire local PD severely scrutinizing everything you do because you decided to draw attention to yourself...

Let me hand you one of these...

[Catman]

Civil infractions cannot be enforced in MA outside an Officers presence. I think the cite is BS. Basically the bus driver is fining you and using the Officer as an agent.  I don't think this should be allowed.

[bing_oh]

Here's the cool thing about this case. Cops get paid to go to court and testify. Bus drivers don't. Chances are this clown isn't going to show up in the first place, and if he does, he'll be losing money (or time) by doing so. 

If this guy genuinely is a d-bag, you can always give him a taste of his own medicine. You said he lives near you. Well, check out his house. Does he have a fence? If so, did he get a fence permit? Did he get a building permit for that shed in the yard? Are his trees growing in excess of the local arbor code? How about his cars. Are they parked properly on the street? Enough inches from the curb? Properly registered? Updated inspection stickers? Parked facing the correct way?

You have the power to issue someone a summons too, although someone would have to be the extreme d-bag of the century for me to respond in kind. This guy seems on the milder side of the d-bag scale. 

And, technically, he does not have the power to issue a summons. He arguably has the power to sign criminal charges with the court, but the court and, more specifically, the state (ie, the prosecutor) has to decide if they meet the standards of probable cause to proceed with said charges. Good luck with that. Not to mention pretty much all of the violations you mention are non-criminal.

[GoCougs]

Yes and no.  The bus driver is unlikely to show up, IMO.  It's a gamble, but I'm not convinced it's worth the money for a lawyer when I think the ticket is a bluff.  I liked your dual ticket story, but you spent well more on the lawyer than the fines wi ukd have cost you (albeit for offenses if which you were clearly guilty).

If OH is anything like WA, the bus driver doesn't have to show. Risky to take a gamble IMO.

It's never not enough $$$ to have a clear name and conscious. Besides, the G37 is a very expensive vehicle to insure (almost double that of the Accord) and per my insurance agent at the time a couple of tickets would have likely cost me dearly. By my figuring it was about a financinal wash. Even outside that black marks on a driving record have other detriments - such as being able to rent cars.

[dazzleman]

If OH is anything like WA, the bus driver doesn't have to show. Risky to take a gamble IMO.

It's never not enough $$$ to have a clear name and conscious. Besides, the G37 is a very expensive vehicle to insure (almost double that of the Accord) and per my insurance agent at the time a couple of tickets would have likely cost me dearly. By my figuring it was about a financinal wash. Even outside that black marks on a driving record have other detriments - such as being able to rent cars.

But you were guilty as charged, correct?

[GoCougs]

But you were guilty as charged, correct?

Carpool lane, totally, speeding, I'd say 50/50 with the added double agitation that he said he paced me whilst coming head on (not possible), and was unsafe in the performing the stop.

[dazzleman]

Carpool lane, totally, speeding, I'd say 50/50 with the added double agitation that he said he paced me whilst coming head on (not possible), and was unsafe in the performing the stop.

I forgot you got a carpool lane ticket.  I thought they were both speeding tickets.   You just lost points, man.  A carpool lane ticket is pretty lame...

[GoCougs]

I forgot you got a carpool lane ticket.  I thought they were both speeding tickets.   You just lost points, man.  A carpool lane ticket is pretty lame...

But I get wayyyyyy more benefit out of abusing the carpool lane than I do the speed limit!

[Soup DeVille]

Oh, I'm sure you'd want the entire local PD severely scrutinizing everything you do because you decided to draw attention to yourself...

Let me hand you one of these...

Keep reading the thread, baconator.

[Rupert]

A lawyer could help but I think the need for a lawyer in this case is marginal.

My general rule (for giving advice, at least) is if you did it and there's no jail time, or anytime the fine is insignificant, no lawyer; if you didn't do it and the fine is significant or anytime there's jail time, lawyer.

[dazzleman]

My general rule (for giving advice, at least) is if you did it and there's no jail time, or anytime the fine is insignificant, no lawyer; if you didn't do it and the fine is significant or anytime there's jail time, lawyer.

That's a good rule.  Under that rule, this case is marginal, especially since I think there's a good chance that Mike could significantly knock down the fine or have the case thrown out on his own.

[dazzleman]

But I get wayyyyyy more benefit out of abusing the carpool lane than I do the speed limit!

That may be true, but a hefty speeding ticket just carries more juice. 

[TurboDan]

to attack the police officer and scrutinize everything about his personal life because he came and wrote a ticket?  give me a break.

I didn't suggest he do it (not sure why people are saying I was in favor of actually carrying out that wacky idea), I just said it could be done.

[TurboDan]

And, technically, he does not have the power to issue a summons. He arguably has the power to sign criminal charges with the court, but the court and, more specifically, the state (ie, the prosecutor) has to decide if they meet the standards of probable cause to proceed with said charges. Good luck with that. Not to mention pretty much all of the violations you mention are non-criminal.

In New Jersey, a citizen can most certainly issue another citizen a summons for a municipal ordinance violation or a traffic (title 39) violation within 30 days of said offense. The summons would be recorded and issued on the identical form that a police officer would use. The complaintant also has the right to (using this term loosely here) "prosecute" the case if he or she wishes following a favorable probable cause hearing in front of the municipal court judge (at which the defendant would not be present). A prosecutor does not need to decide to move forward with the case in order for the citizen to move forward with it.

I've seen this method work successfully in my town's municipal court on several occasions, though they've always been for municipal code violations and such, not traffic violations.

[GoCougs]

In New Jersey, a citizen can most certainly issue another citizen a summons for a municipal ordinance violation or a traffic (title 39) violation within 30 days of said offense. The summons would be recorded and issued on the identical form that a police officer would use. The complaintant also has the right to (using this term loosely here) "prosecute" the case if he or she wishes following a favorable probable cause hearing in front of the municipal court judge (at which the defendant would not be present). A prosecutor does not need to decide to move forward with the case in order for the citizen to move forward with it.

I've seen this method work successfully in my town's municipal court on several occasions, though they've always been for municipal code violations and such, not traffic violations.

That is all kinds of wrong.

[AutobahnSHO]

Hold up, what was the condition of the schoolbus lights as you came up on the right-hand side???

-were they yellow?
-were they off?

write everything down about the incident NOW so you don't forget.

[TurboDan]

That is all kinds of wrong.

Why?

FWIW, in practice, this is a relatively rare occurrence, although it does happen from time to time. Like I said, normally in disputes between neighbors WRT zoning or code issues.