BMW 3 series loses comparo in Car and Driver to Lexus IS.

[SJ_GTI]

Sure there are differences in other aspects of the cars - the Camcord class is the most competitive (and best) retail automotive segment extent so there are going to be some compromises. IMO it's very problematic though when a $50k entry-level lux or "sports" sedan isn't any quicker/faster than a $28k V6 Camry/Accord/Altima; doubly so when the ALL NEW versions of the former have engines 6-7+ years old.

Sure a Q50 or A4 is a better drive than a $28k Accord V6, but $22k better? The entry lux class is in the doldrums, and not worth it at this point IMO (new). Since this class depreciates something fierce there are good deals on slightly used/off-lease cars but IMO you've have to be absolutely mental to buy a $50k 328i, A4 or IS350.

Yeah i guess I agree with that. I also wouldn't buy an A4, 328, or IS350 for 50k. But then I can buy an S4 for 48.5k.

And again, I don't know what you are smoking but those cars (Camcords) are not even close to being the same when you actually drive them, regardless of what some spec sheet might say. If you want to think otherwise I guess that is your prerogative of course, but seems odd coming from someone on a car enthusiast forum.

[Cookie Monster]

The new IS is utterly utterly hideous.

Nothing I have read suggests that it will be much better than a posh Toyota to drive, just like the outgoing model.......... I submit that in Europe at least, no-one and I mean absolutely no-one, who is considering an F30, a C Class, an A4 would even give it a second thought. In UK, the pitiful handful of IS that are sold are almost all bought by private buyers (as are the GS models), unlike all the rivals almost all of which are company/lease purchases.

If you want a slightly plush appliance that will keep going for years, by all means buy the Lexus (and a blindfold so you don't have to look at it), but for anyone with a milligramme of petrol in their veins, just ignore it........     

Yes, this post isn't biased at all.

[GoCougs]

Yeah i guess I agree with that. I also wouldn't buy an A4, 328, or IS350 for 50k. But then I can buy an S4 for 48.5k.

And again, I don't know what you are smoking but those cars (Camcords) are not even close to being the same when you actually drive them, regardless of what some spec sheet might say. If you want to think otherwise I guess that is your prerogative of course, but seems odd coming from someone on a car enthusiast forum.

Watch your premise - who said they were "close?" Not I. I will say however the gulf isn't ginormous, or at least not as ginormous as the price differential between the two classes, and this I can confidently say having done ~150k miles in a 7th gen Accord V6 sedan followed by ~40k miles in a G37x sedan. The G37x is a better drive but the Accord can hold its head high.

[MX793]

Yeah i guess I agree with that. I also wouldn't buy an A4, 328, or IS350 for 50k. But then I can buy an S4 for 48.5k.

And again, I don't know what you are smoking but those cars (Camcords) are not even close to being the same when you actually drive them, regardless of what some spec sheet might say. If you want to think otherwise I guess that is your prerogative of course, but seems odd coming from someone on a car enthusiast forum.

Cougs measure's a car's performance prowess exclusively by 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.  Handling is of secondary importance and non-quantifiable tangibles like steering feel are to be completely disregarded as fabrications of the automotive press to justify vehicular preference.

[GoCougs]

The new IS is utterly utterly hideous.

Nothing I have read suggests that it will be much better than a posh Toyota to drive, just like the outgoing model.......... I submit that in Europe at least, no-one and I mean absolutely no-one, who is considering an F30, a C Class, an A4 would even give it a second thought. In UK, the pitiful handful of IS that are sold are almost all bought by private buyers (as are the GS models), unlike all the rivals almost all of which are company/lease purchases.

If you want a slightly plush appliance that will keep going for years, by all means buy the Lexus (and a blindfold so you don't have to look at it), but for anyone with a milligramme of petrol in their veins, just ignore it........     

For at least the last 20 years C&D has been notorious for its love of the 3er. If they say the new IS350 is a better drive than the 335i, especially given the significant acceleration advantage of the latter, it's a pretty good bet that the IS350 is a very good drive.

[Raza]

Yes, this post isn't biased at all.

Yeah, England has a huge anti-Japanese sentiment when it comes to cars.  And this is coming from someone who has an anti-Japanese sentiment himself. 

[SVT666]

Sure there are differences in other aspects of the cars - the Camcord class is the most competitive (and best) retail automotive segment extent so there are going to be some compromises. IMO it's very problematic though when a $50k entry-level lux or "sports" sedan isn't any quicker/faster than a $28k V6 Camry/Accord/Altima; doubly so when the ALL NEW versions of the former have engines 6-7+ years old.

There is so much more than acceleration to how a car drives.

[SVT666]

Cougs measure's a car's performance prowess exclusively by 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.  Handling is of secondary importance and non-quantifiable tangibles like steering feel are to be completely disregarded as fabrications of the automotive press to justify vehicular preference.

He has stated numerous times that steering feel is not important to him.

[GoCougs]

Guys, please don't disagree with me; your Internetry will thank you. This class is now kinda sucky because automakers dropped the ball on engines and drive trains on all-new models (though ze Germans have botched it a lot worse than the Japanese).

[SVT666]

I disagree.  There is so much more to a car than acceleration and the entry lux segment provides quite a bit more in driving enjoyment and refinement compared to the mainstream segment.

[SVT666]

I just priced a Fusion Titanium on Ford.com (US site) and I didn't even add all the options and it came to $35,765.  A BMW 328i that is almost equipped exactly the same is $47,875 and you can get a manual transmission for that price as well.  Even though it's smaller, is it $12,000 better?  Absolutely.

[MexicoCityM3]

I just priced a Fusion Titanium on Ford.com (US site) and I didn't even add all the options and it came to $35,765.  A BMW 328i that is almost equipped exactly the same is $47,875 and you can get a manual transmission for that price as well.  Even though it's smaller, is it $12,000 better?  Absolutely.

I've said it before. BMW's are cheap for what you get (in many cases). Go drive one. All of you.

[Raza]

I must say that I don't find this generation of entry-lux cars very appealing myself.  The F30 is ugly, the C class is a Mercedes, and I'm not sure about the IS (especially if it's soldiering on with the weak 250 as the only engine with a stick).  I like the A4 a lot, but that's really it.  And if they sold the A3 with a stick and AWD, I wouldn't really consider the A4 over the A3. 

[LonghornTX]

I just priced a Fusion Titanium on Ford.com (US site) and I didn't even add all the options and it came to $35,765.  A BMW 328i that is almost equipped exactly the same is $47,875 and you can get a manual transmission for that price as well.  Even though it's smaller, is it $12,000 better?  Absolutely.

Agreed

[LonghornTX]

Guys, please don't disagree with me; your Internetry will thank you. This class is now kinda sucky because automakers dropped the ball on engines and drive trains on all-new models (though ze Germans have botched it a lot worse than the Japanese).

This class is still worth significantly more money than the Camcords - significantly better driving dynamics, nicer interiors, higher quality builds. Though you have a valid point in that there comes point where it is not worth THAT much more.

However, I certainly wouldn't say that BMW has dropped the ball on the powertrains it is sticking in its cars...

[LonghornTX]

I still wouldn't say that... The only reason the 328I is winning comparos is because it's severely out powering the competition.  The handling is still mediocre from all accounts.

I am not exactly sure what you think I said...you think the 335i is the pick of the litter?

[cawimmer430]

Yeah, England has a huge anti-Japanese sentiment when it comes to cars.  And this is coming from someone who has an anti-Japanese sentiment himself. 

It's actually a more a case of Lexus not offering what the European market demands (as usual).

[SJ_GTI]

Watch your premise - who said they were "close?" Not I. I will say however the gulf isn't ginormous, or at least not as ginormous as the price differential between the two classes, and this I can confidently say having done ~150k miles in a 7th gen Accord V6 sedan followed by ~40k miles in a G37x sedan. The G37x is a better drive but the Accord can hold its head high.

You missed my point there.

While it is theoretically possible to pay 50k for an A4, 328i, and IS350...at least with the first two it would be a monumentally silly thing (for a car enthusiast) to do since you can purchase an S4 with a sticker price of 48.5k (which means you could probably buy it for closer to 45k). The reality is someone (again, using an enthusiast basis) who wants to drive an A4 for its best qualities (quattro) can easily do so for ~35k sticker price (probably ~32-33 out the door). Is an A4 ~10k better than a Camcord? Its up to each person. Personally I think it is (obviously since I drive an uplevel version of one). I know no matter how much you might want it, you cannot get AWD on a Camcord, and to get a manual transmission you need to stick with a 4-cylinder engine. Of course a little bit of internet searching also shows that the cheapest you can get an Accord with a V6 is actually ~31k (sticker price), not the ~28k price you keep quoting. UNless you are doing something irrational like comparing sticker price on BMW/Audi versus negotiated "out the door" prices with Honda?

[r0tor]

I am not exactly sure what you think I said...you think the 335i is the pick of the litter?

A turbo 4 banger does not belong in the luxury segment above $40k

[Raza]

It's actually a more a case of Lexus not offering what the European market demands (as usual).

Even if they were to, I doubt Europeans would go for it. 

[Raza]

A turbo 4 banger does not belong in the luxury segment above $40k

Why?  Because of out-of-date notions of the characteristics of a four cylinder engine?

[cawimmer430]

Even if they were to, I doubt Europeans would go for it. 

Most likely.

I'd never buy one - the brand doesn't interest me at all and they also offer nothing that appeals to me. There's no IS Wagon or diesel for example. In Europe in the 3er, A4 and C-Class segment, station wagons with diesel engines are the mass sellers.

[Raza]

Most likely.

I'd never buy one - the brand doesn't interest me at all and they also offer nothing that appeals to me. There's no IS Wagon or diesel for example. In Europe in the 3er, A4 and C-Class segment, station wagons with diesel engines are the mass sellers.

The obsession with history and heritage says to me that even if Toyota or Lexus ticked every box--a diesel, a wagon, that drove just as well as any BMW or Mercedes--Europeans would still reject it just because it's not European or a Ford (though I don't know how well Ford does in mainland Europe, they seem to do well in the UK).

[SVT666]

The obsession with history and heritage says to me that even if Toyota or Lexus ticked every box--a diesel, a wagon, that drove just as well as any BMW or Mercedes--Europeans would still reject it just because it's not European or a Ford (though I don't know how well Ford does in mainland Europe, they seem to do well in the UK).

Ford sells a Fiesta every 2 minutes in Europe.

[Colin]

No, they would not reject it because it is Japanese. We buy lots of Japanese-branded cars.

We don't buy Lexus because, as Wimmer, says, they generally do not offer what we want/need....... thanks to the tax regimes in every European country these days, a low CO2 rating is absolutely essential in the prestige sector, which means that their petrol engined models will only ever sell in penny numbers (as, to be fair do BMW, Merc and Audi these days). over 90% of all sales in all sectors where Lexus have product are diesel these days. We have not been seduced by the advantages of Hybrid in the same way that Americans have, and despite what Cougs asserted earlier (and was called out by others), cars in this sector are not just measured on acceleration, but things like steering, handling, ride all do count and on those criteria the old model at least fell way short of any of its competitors.

[Cookie Monster]

I've said it before. BMW's are cheap for what you get (in many cases). Go drive one. All of you.

I was pretty impressed by the E90 328 I drove, but I don't know if I'd buy one for $35k+.

A $54k E90 M3 seems like a fucking bargain though. I'd buy one for sure if I was shopping in that segment. I'm curious to see how much the new M3's will start at though since the base F30's seem to be increasing in price quickly.

[MexicoCityM3]

No, they would not reject it because it is Japanese. We buy lots of Japanese-branded cars.

We don't buy Lexus because, as Wimmer, says, they generally do not offer what we want/need....... thanks to the tax regimes in every European country these days, a low CO2 rating is absolutely essential in the prestige sector, which means that their petrol engined models will only ever sell in penny numbers (as, to be fair do BMW, Merc and Audi these days). over 90% of all sales in all sectors where Lexus have product are diesel these days. We have not been seduced by the advantages of Hybrid in the same way that Americans have, and despite what Cougs asserted earlier (and was called out by others), cars in this sector are not just measured on acceleration, but things like steering, handling, ride all do count and on those criteria the old model at least fell way short of any of its competitors.

I think in the luxury segment europeans are indeed more conservative and somewhat obsessed about H&H. But the lack of competitive diesels is a very strong mistake of the japanese brands.

[MexicoCityM3]

A $54k E90 M3 seems like a fucking bargain though. I'd buy one for sure if I was shopping in that segment. I'm curious to see how much the new M3's will start at though since the base F30's seem to be increasing in price quickly.

It is a fucking bargain. I have had exactly zero issues with it in almost 5 years. Got it for 65K, can sell it today for 43-45K. After more than 4 years.
It is a "little" thirsty though.

[Catman]

You'd think a diesel for Europe would be easy for Toyota. Seems like they don't have much interest.  I'm pretty sure I would take a GS over a 5 series or E series.  I'd have a tough time between a GS and an A6 though.

[cawimmer430]

You'd think a diesel for Europe would be easy for Toyota. Seems like they don't have much interest.  I'm pretty sure I would take a GS over a 5 series or E series.  I'd have a tough time between a GS and an A6 though.

Toyota gave up on diesels long ago. They're partnering up with BMW and buying BMW diesel engines for use in Toyota cars (but not Lexus).