991 GT3 first drive

[MrH]

So how many race cars not based on 911s are rear engine then? Why?

The only reason the 911 Is is because of a historical accident; that its forbears were based upon a stripped down version of a nazi era commuter car.

Why does it dominate so much on the track then?  Sounds like they should be an abject failure on the track then...

If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.

Exactly!

[r0tor]

You will not find a traditional manual gearbox in any professional racing series, so why would a model that prides itself as being a street legal racecar have a traditional manual?

You get a GT3 for going as fast as possible around a track.  You buy a carrera 2s with a manual if you enjoy driving.

[Soup DeVille]

Why does it dominate so much on the track then?  Sounds like they should be an abject failure on the track then...

Exactly!

It does well in production classes where rules have been made trying to create equality between cars. In open design classes, there are no rear engine cars.

[CALL_911]

Exactly!

Jesus. get a room, you two.

[MrH]

It does well in production classes where rules have been made trying to create equality between cars. In open design classes, there are no rear engine cars.

You'd think a mid engine vehicle would just waltz right into the 911's territory for road cars and absolutely destroy it and take all of its sales...

[Raza]

There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control.   

More control with a DSG?  I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that.  There's less control.  You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears. 

[Raza]

You will not find a traditional manual gearbox in any professional racing series, so why would a model that prides itself as being a street legal racecar have a traditional manual?

You get a GT3 for going as fast as possible around a track.  You buy a carrera 2s with a manual if you enjoy driving.

I believe BTCC still has choice between a manual and a dual clutch box (with a weight penalty).  It might have changed, but it was that way a few years ago.

[SVT666]

More control with a DSG?  I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that.  There's less control.  You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears.

When I was hard on the brakes in the GT-R and shifting down, I gave three rapid pulls on the downshift paddle, and it dropped from 5th to 2nd in the blink of an eye.  Whether it actually skipped them or not, I don't know, but it got to 2nd way faster than I ever could have by skipping gears.  I imagine it would be the same going up.  But, like I said, I would only have a DSG on a car I tracked a lot. 

[SJ_GTI]

If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.

This +1

Going back to my previous post this is why I said if I was buying a 911, it would be the Carrera (probably not even bothering with the "S"). IF I was going to get a 911 GT3 it would be to drive it on the track, otherwise the car itself is a waste of money (IMHO). So in a theoretical world where I (1) Have enough money to buy this type of Car and (2) Have a desire to take it to the track I would go with the PDK transmission anyway.

[Soup DeVille]

You'd think a mid engine vehicle would just waltz right into the 911's territory for road cars and absolutely destroy it and take all of its sales...

Porsche buyers are loyal, and most of them don't care that its not the fastest.

[12,000 RPM]

You'd think a mid engine vehicle would just waltz right into the 911's territory for road cars and absolutely destroy it and take all of its sales...

Theres more to the 911's success than its engine layout

There are pros and cons to rear engined vs mid engined.  To say one is definitively better is a stretch.  Especially when Porsche keeps kicking everyone's ass with a rear engined car.

There's definitely more performance with a DSG, more control.  Only downside is slightly more weight.  Just the fact you guys think having a manual transmission over a DSG is a make or break factor is crazy to me.  You still have direct control over what gear you're using.  I question whether some of you have driven a good DSG.

I dont know dude. Theres a reason Porsche keeps saddlebagging the Cayman/Boxster, as well as why they stretched the 911's wheelbase and moved the engine a little more forward. Not to mention if it worked there would be more RR race cars. 911 is pretty much the exception to the rule

I would imagine that driving this car with a conventional manual would be like an NBA All-Star playing in Chuck Taylors.

Im imagining driving this car as is being like an average Joe playing a pick up game in $300 Lebron X's

You will not find a traditional manual gearbox in any professional racing series, so why would a model that prides itself as being a street legal racecar have a traditional manual?

You get a GT3 for going as fast as possible around a track.  You buy a carrera 2s with a manual if you enjoy driving.

I would bet the PDK Turbo would be much faster around a track in the hands of an avg Joe. Point n shoot.

And for the $$$ a brand new GT3 is a pretty bad value proposition for going around a track fast, even for a brand new car. GT-R, Viper, ZR1 would be at least as fast for 30-40K less. You buy a GT3 because you want a track focused 911. The 911 "Type-R".

[MrH]

More control with a DSG?  I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that.  There's less control.  You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears. 

You only modulate the clutch to disengage the transmission so you can shift.

I can get to the gear I want quicker, more precisely (no chance of missing a gate), and without upsetting the balance.  You can't skip gears faster than a DSG could rip through them with paddles.

[Soup DeVille]

More control with a DSG?  I'll give you a lot of advantages with a DSG, but not that.  There's less control.  You don't have a clutch to modulate and you can't jump gears. 

Yes, you can jump gears, and there's no need to modulate a clutch other than to change gears, which the dsg eliminates.

[CALL_911]

If I owned a GT3, I'd take it to the track as often as I could. If I wanted a Porsche to not drive around a track, I'd get a Carrera S cabrio.

Fair point. I suppose I couldn't say unless I had the money to buy a GT3/track it.

[S204STi]

Addressing the manual transmission issue, I agree with chris at the end of the video. The philosophy and the facts are very different, this is the last car I expected to go the technical route based on it's PHILOSOPHY. The facts however are very different and this is ultimately what the market wants. For those of us who would rather embrace the philosophy(at the penalty of a few seconds on a race track) we just have to accept it or move on.

^

[Raza]

You only modulate the clutch to disengage the transmission so you can shift.

I can get to the gear I want quicker, more precisely (no chance of missing a gate), and without upsetting the balance.  You can't skip gears faster than a DSG could rip through them with paddles.

Are you only talking about track driving or overall? 

[Raza]

Fair point. I suppose I couldn't say unless I had the money to buy a GT3/track it.

I'd rather track a 996 GT3 RS. 

*ducksbecauseit'snotthefastestcareverwithflappypaddleshiftersandcomputercontrolledsuspensionandautopilotanditonlyhasoneshiftprogram*

[MrH]

Are you only talking about track driving or overall? 

...yes

[Raza]

...yes

You don't have a lot of real world experience with DSGs, do you?

[r0tor]

You skip shifts in a manual because your tired of rowing gears... Not applicable for a dsg

[FlatBlackCaddy]

You don't have a lot of real world experience with DSGs, do you?

I personally still don't trust them in the reliability department. Consumer stuff has come a long way since the BMW SMG days, they may be faster and smoother but I just know they will cost me in the long run.

[CALL_911]

You don't have a lot of real world experience with DSGs, do you?

Are you really arguing that you think you can shift faster than a DSG? In any setting? 

[SVT666]

Are you really arguing that you think you can shift faster than a DSG? In any setting? 

DSGs usually suck in slow city driving unless you leave them in auto.

[MX793]

You only modulate the clutch to disengage the transmission so you can shift.

I can get to the gear I want quicker, more precisely (no chance of missing a gate), and without upsetting the balance.  You can't skip gears faster than a DSG could rip through them with paddles.

On the flip side, when you're trying to quickly drop from 5th to 2nd for a tight corner, you need to keep count of how many times you pulled the paddle.  I periodically ran into this when I was racing motocross as a kid.  Did I hit the shifter 3 times or, in the heat of battle, did I accidentally hit it 4?  I guess PDK, with its automated nannies, will prevent you from doing anything that would cause the rear wheels to lock or the engine to over-rev, but it's entirely possible to end up in a lower gear than you intended.

[MX793]

I will not fault Porsche for going sequential/PDK gearbox in their "track" capable street car, since that really is the transmission you want when you want to extract the most from a car.  I do kind of feel like the SMG/DSG gearbox is becoming a marketing department's wet dream.  "We're not selling out by offering an automatic gearbox to try to lure the less hardcore drivers, we're offering the transmission that offers the best possible performance to better cater to performance enthusiasts!".  They could have preserved more of the GT3's hardcore image by disabling the transmission's automatic mode, making the driver still summon every shift.  But there's that pesky purist's philosophy getting in the way of practical common sense.

[Catman]

[SJ_GTI]

You skip shifts in a manual because your tired of rowing gears... Not applicable for a dsg

I skip second gear a lot simply because its a smoother transition going from 1-3. Though honestly If I am on a downhill slope or even a slight roll I will instead skip 1st gear and just start on 2nd gear.

When merging on the highway I often skip 5th gear simply because its not needed. 4th gear gets me to ~75 MPH very easily, at which point I go right to 6th simply because going to 5 "just because its next" doesn't make sense.

Note that all of the above situations are only applicable to casual driving, not trying to go fast.

[SJ_GTI]

DSGs usually suck in slow city driving unless you leave them in auto.

Have driven an A3 with DSG and this was not the case at all. It was super smooth in all the driving situations I encountered (stop and go traffic as well as accelerating to merge on to highways). I was very impressed. I suspect if I had a DSG I would still keep it on manual operation ~95% of the time or more.

[12,000 RPM]

I would want to hit every gear on the track. During braking skipping a gear = missing out on engine braking

Front bumper looks like a Bentley Continental and it bothers me.

Waiting for the GT3 RS. Bring back the Clubsport

[MrH]

I would want to hit every gear on the track. During braking skipping a gear = missing out on engine braking

Front bumper looks like a Bentley Continental and it bothers me.

Waiting for the GT3 RS. Bring back the Clubsport

"Missing out on engine braking"?  What are you missing out on?  If you're hard on the brakes already, you're not gaining anything with engine braking.