Go fast or Feel fast - Which one do you REALLY want?

[hotrodalex]

I think just about anybody would, if not then just buy a bath tub and put a 350 in it and have "fun".

That would probably be really fun in a redneck kinda way...

[FlatBlackCaddy]

This is a tough one, but most likely not.  But the problem is, I don't think the Elise even feels faster.  There's just less disconnect between the car and the road. 

I think this is really more about how disconnected the cars are with the road vs actually feeling faster.  If you're talking about a cushy Bentley vs a Go Kart.. yeah, I'd take a Go Kart.  So this argument is really relative. 

Of course it's all relative.

However the TREND seems to be that speed is being achieved at the cost of the other aspects that make a car not just fast, but fun. Look at the latest GT3 review and responses in a thread not even half way down the page in this section. The point I was making(and i'm sure others) is that if giving up some speed/power would give us a better car then we'll take it. Automakers seem to shoot for a power/speed target first and then go back and "figure out" the rest of the car.

I'd rather have a GTR that has 50HP(or even 100hp) less but will let me shift my own gears and has better responses to my inputs then what's on the showroom floor now.

I guess it just goes back to what is often stated in the reviews of some of the best drivers cars.

It WANTS me to drive it fast. We've all heard that before, and when you finally feel it you know how important it is.

Cars like the GT-R just seem to care less either way, it's just there. It isn't engaging it isn't responding to you. It's like dancing with someone with a 4x8 board stuck between the two of you.

[Soup DeVille]

A bit, and only if it was purposefully to make the car take a step backwards; i.e., the Pinto-based V8-less 1974 Mustang II.

My point being, your rule that cars only ever get better is not an absolute fact.

[12,000 RPM]

No, not really. Again, the Camaro/Mustang/Corvette example. With each generation these cars (esp. since the late '70s) got vastly more capable, yet, vastly more fun to drive and overall provided a vastly better driving experience, and that includes on public roads.

Muscle cars don't count because they were so laughably bad in their infancy they had nowhere to go but up. Plus they only became objectively "good" in the last decade or so. You can't say something like a Miata orit a 3 Series, which have been segment benchmarks for 20-30 years, ever really "sucked". For fucks sake GM benchmarked the dymanics of the 3 series from 2 generations ago for its current sports sedan. I am not sure you can find a much bigger endorsement than a multibillion dollar gamble.

[NomisR]

Of course it's all relative.

However the TREND seems to be that speed is being achieved at the cost of the other aspects that make a car not just fast, but fun. Look at the latest GT3 review and responses in a thread not even half way down the page in this section. The point I was making(and i'm sure others) is that if giving up some speed/power would give us a better car then we'll take it. Automakers seem to shoot for a power/speed target first and then go back and "figure out" the rest of the car.

I'd rather have a GTR that has 50HP(or even 100hp) less but will let me shift my own gears and has better responses to my inputs then what's on the showroom floor now.

I guess it just goes back to what is often stated in the reviews of some of the best drivers cars.

It WANTS me to drive it fast. We've all heard that before, and when you finally feel it you know how important it is.

Cars like the GT-R just seem to care less either way, it's just there. It isn't engaging it isn't responding to you. It's like dancing with someone with a 4x8 board stuck between the two of you.

I don't think the GTR's as bad as you guys say.  Sure it's no Go Kart but it's really not that bad. 

Plus, I don't really think shifting makes driving all that fun.  I mean, sure, I prefer it over a traditional slush box but that's more because I don't like the way traditional slush boxes work more than I prefer to shift.  I mean, going into a corner hot while trying to slow down and downshift, I don't really want to have to think about possibly missing a shift and blowing up my engine too while trying to do all of that before the straight ends and you have to actually turn the steering wheel.  But then again, I'm probably not as experience in driving like some of you that has it down pat..

It's like saying a Go Kart isn't fun because you can't shift...

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I haven't commented much on it, due to it being a used vehicle.

In my example, the Tranny was shit. Shifts were slow and clunky, that isn't fun.

[NomisR]

I haven't commented much on it, due to it being a used vehicle.

In my example, the Tranny was shit. Shifts were slow and clunky, that isn't fun.

I wish they would simply create a sequential transmission with a clutch... best of both worlds.. you keep your hands on the wheel and your have a clutch...

[CJ]

Holy shit, guys. Cougs thinks newer cars are fun. That's his opinion. Others think differently. Get over it.


I like driving Ford Excursions because I think they're fun.

[SVT666]

I wish they would simply create a sequential transmission with a clutch... best of both worlds.. you keep your hands on the wheel and your have a clutch...

That's stupid.

[SVT666]

Holy shit, guys. Cougs thinks newer cars are fun. That's his opinion. Others think differently. Get over it.


I like driving Ford Excursions because I think they're fun.

Stay out of it Switzerland.

[Laconian]

Yeah, a preselector gearbox! I saw some at the car museum on Sat.

[SVT666]

I haven't commented much on it, due to it being a used vehicle.

In my example, the Tranny was shit. Shifts were slow and clunky, that isn't fun.

In my experience, the GT-R's shifts are slow and clunky unless you're going balls out.  I didn't drive it on public roads but when I was lightly accelerating  those were my exact thoughts.  When going balls out however, it's awesome.

[SVT666]

No, not really. Again, the Camaro/Mustang/Corvette example. With each generation these cars (esp. since the late '70s) got vastly more capable, yet, vastly more fun to drive and overall provided a vastly better driving experience, and that includes on public roads.

Yes, they have.  But only because the old cars were so fucking terrible.  But take an older 3 series or Miata and compare it to today's cars and the old ones are more fun.

[hotrodalex]

Holy shit, guys. Cougs thinks newer cars are fun. That's his opinion. Others think differently. Get over it.

Except that side of the argument is trying to present it as fact.

[NomisR]

That's stupid.

What's so stupid about it?  It gets rid of what actually makes the manumatic horrible to drive on the streets.  I mean, just shifting a stick around doesn't really make driving more fun and it makes it faster.. you still have the same control with a clutch.. and you don't have to worry about misshifts...

[MexicoCityM3]

Fast, modern, capable cars can be a lot of fun even when driven well below the limit.

Any Ferrari is fun - at any speed. The experience of driving it is fun, even slowly. The sounds, the textures and the "event" of driving one make up for whatever disadvantages for fun it's inherent capability brings.

I find it fun just looking at my cars. Driving balls out is not necessary all of the time. (Some of the time it is).

[GoCougs]

My point being, your rule that cars only ever get better is not an absolute fact.

Come at me bro (where is it not fact?).

[SVT666]

Come at me bro (where is it not fact?).

We have already given examples and we could give plenty more, but you dismiss them because in your mind only lap times, braking distance, and NVH matter.

[Raza]

We have already given examples and we could give plenty more, but you dismiss them because in your mind only lap times, braking distance, and NVH matter.

And safety. 

[Soup DeVille]

Come at me bro (where is it not fact?).

Where you just fucking admitted it, and gave an example.

[SJ_GTI]

In my experience, the GT-R's shifts are slow and clunky unless you're going balls out.  I didn't drive it on public roads but when I was lightly accelerating  those were my exact thoughts.  When going balls out however, it's awesome.

That sounds like BMW's SMG from back in the E46 days. I test drove an example of it and thought it was pretty great when pushing the car, but it was a little bit "clunky" when just puttering around. I will say though that having driven a few cars with Audi's DSG that it is much better. It was just as good (or better) when being pushed hard (still super quick, but smoother) but it was also very good when just puttering around town.

I mentioned this before but there are occasional times when I wish I had opted for the DSG in my S4. These are not the times that most people think of: When I am really pushing my car, those are the times I wish I had DSG. When I am just driving around town though (which is 95%+ of the time), that is the time I am glad I stuck with a manual. If I was buying a car just for the purpose of taking it to a track (and FWIW, there is apparently a local track that does let people/clubs rent it out) I would absolutely get a DSG/SMG type transmission. However for a car I would daily drive I would almost certainly get a manual.

The point of the above is that how "fun" a car can be is very dependent on the circumstances it will get used.

[SVT666]

When I had my SVT Focus, there were times I got stuck in traffic and I wished I had an automatic, but driving an automatic every day of the year now I really miss rowing my own gears.

[12,000 RPM]

I don't miss stickshift in the Rabbit. Some cars can't be saved with stickshift. It's not a bad car, but it would take a lot to get that raw connected feel that would warrant a stickshift. I don't even know that I would want one for a GTI to be honest.

[Tave]

My understanding is that some of the automated gearboxes, especially BMW's SMG, require the driver to adjust their habits to mimic manual driving to ensure smooth shifts (i.e., lift off the throttle). That makes sense in light of the low-speed issues: keeping your foot on the throttle wouldn't be as big of a deal at speed, just as you don't need to lift off as much on a traditional manual while driving all-out.

[MrH]

I said it was boring because a car that is exploring just 2 or 3 tenths of it's potential will not be nearly as fun as a car that can approach 8 tenths of it's potential at the same speed.  That is a statement I will stand by.  Cars like the LaFerrari are barely exploring it's potential at anything close to safe on public roads.

So fun is defined by what percentage of the limit you can reach on the street?  You act like you're power sliding an old MG through every corner.  You drive an AWD G37.  You're not reaching those limits.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

My understanding is that some of the automated gearboxes, especially BMW's SMG, require the driver to adjust their habits to mimic manual driving to ensure smooth shifts (i.e., lift off the throttle). That makes sense in light of the low-speed issues: keeping your foot on the throttle wouldn't be as big of a deal at speed, just as you don't need to lift off as much on a traditional manual while driving all-out.

I tried a couple different ways in the GTR, none of them made much of a difference.

If I was required to "act" like i'm driving a manual so an automated gearbox could function correctly that would be foolish, not to mention a gigantic design/implementation flaw.

[hotrodalex]

So fun is defined by

I see we're still still trying to do the impossible.

[MrH]

Fun can't be defined! That's your problem with all of this. There's not a specific thing that makes a Mustang fun and a Versa not so fun.

I'm not the one trying to define it by whether you can reach the limits of it or not on a public road.  I wasn't the one who called the LaFerrari "boring".  I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous that is.

The V8 power and noise.  The V6 with the Pony Package has the GT suspension and is very fun.  I've driven it.  It basically has the same limits as a standard GT but the GT can accelerate much faster which is a thrill as well, and the GT can be driven pretty hard on public roads.
You lose all credibility with that statement, not me.  The Mustang is one of the most fun cars you can drive on public roads.  You can't wipe the smile off the driver's face when driving one, and the fact that you're such a hater doesn't change that.  And if you think the GT has mediocre handling you have never driven one.

Every car you drive is heralded as the best thing on the road.  You fell in love with your SVT focus, then the 3-series, then the G37.  If you want to talk about a "driver's car" in any sense outside of Jalopnik posters, there's no rational defense of the live axle on the mustang.  There are so many competitor's with lower limits that are much better to drive.


Ah yes, now the "hater" term is thrown around.  Nothing like chalking up to the blanket statement of "hater" when you can't explain yourself.

Are you purposefully being obtuse and douchey, or is it just natural?

I'm being obtuse...says the man who claims the LaFerrari is boring, despite no one, including yourself, having driven it.

You're fucking impossible.  Please stick to arguments people are actually making instead of making up your own ones. 

I'm just making the same point.  If a LaFerrari is boring based solely on the fact you can't explore it's limits, does that mean exploring the limits of a car is the defining quality that makes a car "fun"?

[MrH]

I see we're still still trying to do the impossible.

I'm just clarifying what they're trying to define.  They said a LaFerrari is boring because you can't approach the limits on the street.  I'm not quantifying fun, just pointing out how ridiculous that is.

[Raza]

I'm just making the same point.  If a LaFerrari is boring based solely on the fact you can't explore it's limits, does that mean exploring the limits of a car is the defining quality that makes a car "fun"?

Contrapositive, not opposite.  If I say it's not raining, that doesn't mean it's sunny.