Go fast or Feel fast - Which one do you REALLY want?

[hotrodalex]

I never saw Craig or anyone else trying to define fun with a concrete definition. They say what they have found to be fun, but I never saw them say "everything else isn't fun".

Although really, if you like cars then you can probably find a way to have fun in just about anything. I could have fun in a Prius by trying to get the lowest MPG, for example. And I find huge trucks fun just because they're huge (the dump truck loving kid coming out, I guess). And sports cars are fun for obvious reasons.

[Cookie Monster]

Well, Craig is the one who said the LaFerrari will be flat out boring, and MrH is trying to figure out how he can just dismiss the LaFerrari so quickly and what metric he is using to define that it's a boring car.

[MrH]

I never saw Craig or anyone else trying to define fun with a concrete definition. They say what they have found to be fun, but I never saw them say "everything else isn't fun".

Although really, if you like cars then you can probably find a way to have fun in just about anything. I could have fun in a Prius by trying to get the lowest MPG, for example. And I find huge trucks fun just because they're huge (the dump truck loving kid coming out, I guess). And sports cars are fun for obvious reasons.

Apparently that's not true to a lot of this forum.

Well, Craig is the one who said the LaFerrari will be flat out boring, and MrH is trying to figure out how he can just dismiss the LaFerrari so quickly and what metric he is using to define that it's a boring car.

Exactly.

[NomisR]

Apparently that's not true to a lot of this forum.

That car's limit is WAY TOO HIGH!!  There's no way I can have fun in it because it's harder to reach a point where I can mess up and crash the car.......

[MrH]

That car's limit is WAY TOO HIGH!!  There's no way I can have fun in it because it's harder to reach a point where I can mess up and crash the car.......

  more like, "it's harder to reach a point I never reach anyways, where I don't have the skill to keep from crashing!"

[GoCougs]

Nah, somewhere along the line when the argument was being lost that new cars are less "engaging" to drive or weren't as good or w/e, there was an attempt at diverting the argument to which is more "fun." This mostly loses too, in context.

[SVT666]

So fun is defined by what percentage of the limit you can reach on the street?  You act like you're power sliding an old MG through every corner.  You drive an AWD G37.  You're not reaching those limits.

I drive my car pretty hard.  It's a lot of fun, but (and I have stated this before), my much slower SVT Focus was more fun because I could reach it's limits a lot sooner and much less dangerously.

[SVT666]

Nah, somewhere along the line when the argument was being lost that new cars are less "engaging" to drive or weren't as good or w/e, there was an attempt at diverting the argument to which is more "fun." This mostly loses too, in context.

You really have no fucking clue.

[Raza]

Apparently that's not true to a lot of this forum.

LaFerrari isn't a sports car.  It's a GT.  Fixed roof, automatic transmission.

[SVT666]

Every car you drive is heralded as the best thing on the road.  You fell in love with your SVT focus, then the 3-series, then the G37. 

Huh.  Imagine that.  I drive those three great cars and I fall in love with all three of them.  Crazy, I know.

If you want to talk about a "driver's car" in any sense outside of Jalopnik posters, there's no rational defense of the live axle on the mustang.  There are so many competitor's with lower limits that are much better to drive.

See, now you are defining "driver's car" by an axle.  How fucking stupid is that?  And yes, there are slower cars that are better drives...including YOUR car.  But I suppose you'll argue with me on that too.

I'm just making the same point.  If a LaFerrari is boring based solely on the fact you can't explore it's limits, does that mean exploring the limits of a car is the defining quality that makes a car "fun"?

I don't know how many times I have to say it, so I'm not going to anymore. 

[NomisR]

LaFerrari isn't a sports car.  It's a GT.  Fixed roof, automatic transmission.

There's not that many true sports car today anyways .. by definition.

[Raza]

There's not that many true sports car today anyways .. by definition.

Sad, isn't it?

[12,000 RPM]

  more like, "it's harder to reach a point I never reach anyways, where I don't have the skill to keep from crashing!"

Wasn't this how you rationalized the EZ-Drive™ transmission in the 991 GT3?

Nah, somewhere along the line when the argument was being lost that new cars are less "engaging" to drive

They aren't Manufacturers HAVE to remove drivers from the equation now, because the kinds of people who buy supercars now don't have the skills to fully control them.

[12,000 RPM]

So fun is defined by what percentage of the limit you can reach on the street?  You act like you're power sliding an old MG through every corner.  You drive an AWD G37.  You're not reaching those limits.

Enthusiasm isn't defined by 1) driving like an idiot on public streets or 2)only owning cars that exist for the sole purpose of driving engagement. If people had to drive what they "believed in" there would probably only be about 2-3 posters here, and you wouldn't be one of them (something like an EVO X SST would be way more of an endorsement of the driving tech you purport as the root of new driving fun than the thoroughly analog + old school BFRZ).

Driving something like a LaFerrari on the street is like bagging a VS supermodel and just getting to hold her hand in public. It just seems pointless to me. It's so far out of its element anywhere but a very fast closed course.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Who new that arguing opinions was a dead end?

Just to be safe let's give it a try for another 4 pages or so.

[hotrodalex]

LaFerrari isn't a sports car.  It's a GT.  Fixed roof, automatic transmission.

Exactly.

[Raza]

Who new that arguing opinions was a dead end?

Just to be safe let's give it a try for another 4 pages or so.

[GoCougs]

They aren't Manufacturers HAVE to remove drivers from the equation now, because the kinds of people who buy supercars now don't have the skills to fully control them.

Nah, those buying super cars today are the same buying super cars then - celebrities, royalty, etc., - and they've never been able to "fully" control a super car of any vintage.

[12,000 RPM]

Nah, those buying super cars today are the same buying super cars then - celebrities, royalty, etc., - and they've never been able to "fully" control a super car of any vintage.

Like I said earlier... a "supercar" back in the day is about as fast as a modern base 911. Fast and beyond Joe Eight Figures' abilities, but several leagues away from something like a LaFerrari, which is probably faster than a Countach era F1 car. "Its awesome that we can have F1 performance on the street" Yes now we just need the roads and drivers to make sense of that capacity.

[NomisR]

Like I said earlier... a "supercar" back in the day is about as fast as a modern base 911. Fast and beyond Joe Eight Figures' abilities, but several leagues away from something like a LaFerrari, which is probably faster than a Countach era F1 car. "Its awesome that we can have F1 performance on the street" Yes now we just need the roads and drivers to make sense of that capacity.

What's wrong with having too much ability for your own good.  The modern Ferraris has enough electronic nannies to keep you in line if needed and you're also free to turn it off if you feel like you can handle it.  And I bet just simply driving through an empty canyon road, it's still way more fun than a Miata.  Now, bumper to bumper traffic OTOH.... i'd rather be in the back of a Rolls Royce or something like that..

[MexicoCityM3]

Lol at the all the "LaFerrari won't be fun because its limits are too high." proponents here.

Just plodding along in it will be fun. Revving it will be fun. Getting scared shitless when dipping on the throttle will be fun. Arriving anywhere in it will be fun. Departing anywhere in it will be fun.

And lots of owners will track it.

[CALL_911]

Lol at the all the "LaFerrari won't be fun because its limits are too high." proponents here.

Just plodding along in it will be fun. Revving it will be fun. Getting scared shitless when dipping on the throttle will be fun. Arriving anywhere in it will be fun. Departing anywhere in it will be fun.

And lots of owners will track it.

/thread

[GoCougs]

Like I said earlier... a "supercar" back in the day is about as fast as a modern base 911. Fast and beyond Joe Eight Figures' abilities, but several leagues away from something like a LaFerrari, which is probably faster than a Countach era F1 car. "Its awesome that we can have F1 performance on the street" Yes now we just need the roads and drivers to make sense of that capacity.

A Miura, Countach, 308/328, 930T, etc., will be WAY harder to drive, at any level, than any equivalent today.

[NomisR]

A Miura, Countach, 308/328, 930T, etc., will be WAY harder to drive, at any level, than any equivalent today.

Providing they would even start...

[GoCougs]

Providing they would even start...

Super cars were pretty sucky for quite some time. It mostly started with the Miura, which is one of the best all time, but man did it suck from there on out - Countach, Jalpa, Bora, 308/328, Mondial, etc. Not till the Testarossa did things start to get better and not until the F360 and Gallardo did things get REALLY good.

[12,000 RPM]

Super cars were pretty sucky for quite some time. It mostly started with the Miura, which is one of the best all time, but man did it suck from there on out - Countach, Jalpa, Bora, 308/328, Mondial, etc. Not till the Testarossa did things start to get better and not until the F360 and Gallardo did things get REALLY good.

How was the Miura better than the Countach in your opinion?

A Miura, Countach, 308/328, 930T, etc., will be WAY harder to drive, at any level, than any equivalent today.

Only physically because of the crap shift and pedal linkages....

But lol @ a 1000 HP car being easier to drive at the limit than a 230HP 308. Also nice strawman 

[GoCougs]

How was the Miura better than the Countach in your opinion?

Exterior design, craftsmanship and practicality.

Only physically because of the crap shift and pedal linkages....

But lol @ a 1000 HP car being easier to drive at the limit than a 230HP 308. Also nice strawman 

Ha, ha! You strap yourself into a vintage 911 or Countach or 308 or F40 or w/e without TC, SC and ABS and let's see how long it takes you to pile it into a wall trying to drive it at more than about 5/10 ths .

[12,000 RPM]

Exterior design, craftsmanship and practicality.

Ha, ha! You strap yourself into a vintage 911 or Countach or 308 or F40 or w/e without TC, SC and ABS and let's see how long it takes you to pile it into a wall trying to drive it at more than about 5/10 ths .

Yea Im pretty sure a 200HP vintage 911 wouldn't be harder to drive than a 900HP anything at full tilt for a myriad of reasons

But this discussion has officially gone full retard

[hotrodalex]

Just read this article and thought of this thread...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/overview/1303_2013_ford_focus_st_2013_subaru_brz/

[FlatBlackCaddy]

Just read this article and thought of this thread...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/overview/1303_2013_ford_focus_st_2013_subaru_brz/

Good read, really makes sense in the context of this thread. Though my original(and current) intent wasn't about comparing specific cars, this does show the result of two different companies and the design decisions that result in 2 very different examples of performance.