Volkswagen stops Phaeton Imports

[J86]

Actually, high end manufacturers do advertise, just not in the mags we commoners read . You can see Aston Martin, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, and Maybach ads in mags like Yachting. I imagine Forbes and Money have a fair number of ads for BMWs, MBs, and Audis.

Read "Showboats International"  THAT'S for the wealthy set!

They brought Maybachs one year to where I work as part of a promo!

[Raza]

If the Phaeton is a bad handling car, it stands to apply that to all the cars that share its chassis.  The A8, the Continental GT and Flying Spur, and Gallardo  

It handles better than an LS430 can dream of, feels more solidly built, and has an interior that is more attractive and built as well, if not better.  And before the significant updates, the LS still lagged behind the A8 in luxury, and behind the S class and 7 series in driving dynamics.  And now that the XJ is a serious competitor in this class, the only thing the Lexus has going for it is the ride, in which it's so floaty, that it made the last generation Cadillac DTS feel like a sporting car.  

Considering how well the A8L handles itself under extreme conditions (which I've  verified myself, as a matter of fact, with triple digits in back roads, where handling is everything), the Phaeton cannot be too far behind.  The extra weight does hurt it, probably to the tune of more understeer, but it's not like an LS430 wouldn't bail out first.

[thewizard16]

If the Phaeton is a bad handling car, it stands to apply that to all the cars that share its chassis.  The A8, the Continental GT and Flying Spur, and Gallardo  

It handles better than an LS430 can dream of, feels more solidly built, and has an interior that is more attractive and built as well, if not better.  And before the significant updates, the LS still lagged behind the A8 in luxury, and behind the S class and 7 series in driving dynamics.  And now that the XJ is a serious competitor in this class, the only thing the Lexus has going for it is the ride, in which it's so floaty, that it made the last generation Cadillac DTS feel like a sporting car.  

Considering how well the A8L handles itself under extreme conditions (which I've  verified myself, as a matter of fact, with triple digits in back roads, where handling is everything), the Phaeton cannot be too far behind.  The extra weight does hurt it, probably to the tune of more understeer, but it's not like an LS430 wouldn't bail out first.

I've honestly never driven either car, my judgments on handling are based on what I've read, and though the LS is in my mind the least sporty car in the segment, it's still not horrible. Also, in my mind, the LS can't be that much worse than these cars if it's still doing so well with reviewers (C/D- $70,000 sedans (that outcome suprised me), IFCAR's, Consumer Search, etc.). In fact, it wasn't just doing well, it was winning, as the best "overall" luxury car. I know those reviews were before the new S, the S undoubtedly would not do so poorly now, but the other cars that it was compared to (including the Phaeton) are esentially unchanged. The LS is a luxury cruiser that focuses on comfort and isolation, and it does that very well. Far better than the Phaeton. There are things it doesn't do as well, but whether or not that puts it below the rest of the high-lux class, I don't know.  <_<  

[ifcar]

The Phaeton does handle better than the LS430, though quite marginally, in my experience. It's just too heavy, and the steering feel is terrible.

And Raza, Lexus dealer sites don't seem to offer an inventory search, but I've definitely seen LS430s with sub-$70k stickers.  

[thewizard16]

The Phaeton does handle better than the LS430, though quite marginally, in my experience. It's just too heavy, and the steering feel is terrible.

And Raza, Lexus dealer sites don't seem to offer an inventory search, but I've definitely seen LS430s with sub-$70k stickers.

Considering you can build 06s fully loaded for under $70,000, I would certainly hope so. The Ultra Lux package costs about 4k less than I remember it costing, according to the Build Your Lexus section on their website.

[ifcar]

Of course you can build it to that price, but that's theoretical. But I've definitely seen plenty around under $70k.

[mazda6er]

Of course you can build it to that price, but that's theoretical. But I've definitely seen plenty around under $70k.

I'm not sure you read his post correctly. :)

[ifcar]

I did misread it, but that's not a nationwide price. IIRC, Arkansas is one of the states that always has different Toyota prices. I'll build one now...

[ifcar]

Just priced it, I couldn't get it past $65K, much cheaper than it used to be. The 05 in the IFCAR comparo was $73K, and it may not have even had every option.

[thewizard16]

Just priced it, I couldn't get it past $65K, much cheaper than it used to be. The 05 in the IFCAR comparo was $73K, and it may not have even had every option.

I built one a while back and got it up around $74-$76K, which I believe is average. They've lowered the price quite a bit. Also, I know that the Toyota/Lexus prices here are the same or very very close to those in Iowa, where I used to live and still visit on occasion. I don't understand the way they determine regional pricing and options though.

[TBR]

Raza, any sedan that weighs over 2.5 tons sure as hell better have a vault-like feeling. I am amazed to see you defending poor engineering, especially since not too long ago you were telling me that the 4000lb Charger should weigh no more than 3500 lbs.

[Raghavan]

Raza, any sedan that weighs over 2.5 tons sure as hell better have a vault-like feeling. I am amazed to see you defending poor engineering, especially since not too long ago you were telling me that the 4000lb Charger should weigh no more than 3500 lbs.

Because a Charger has a lot more sporting intentions than the Phaeton does.

[TBR]

Question:Why is it that the Phaeton doesn't have sporting intentions?
Answer: It weighs over 5000 lbs!

The two are in direct relation to each other, the lighter version of the Phaeton definitely has sporting intentions and from what I understand the Audi's ride is no worse (IFCAR?).

[ifcar]

The Audi's ride is much nicer, the Phaeton's is surprisingly stiff.  

[Raza]

Raza, any sedan that weighs over 2.5 tons sure as hell better have a vault-like feeling. I am amazed to see you defending poor engineering, especially since not too long ago you were telling me that the 4000lb Charger should weigh no more than 3500 lbs.

It's a matter of materials, and yes, ideally it would be much, much lighter.  But considering the measures that Volkswagen had to take to sell this car (not to mention the risk involved, such big stones) it's understandable that costs had to be cut, and they couldn't afford to do it with the interior.  What they really made was a luxury saloon the way luxury saloons use to be made--without much regard to sport.  Go back 10 or 20 years, and the only large saloons that had any type of sportiness to them were 7ers, and now everyone is pushing for faster and more excessive sedans, which is fine by me--I don't have a problem with it (even though this ridiculousness seems to have pushed me out of the segment for good, especially with the technological arms race) but there was something refreshing about the way the Phaeton felt.  It really was the same way you feel when you drive a car like the W140--it's introverted, quiet, superb, and it puts you in a place away from the madness of the rest of the world.

Perhaps it made me feel nostalgic, is all.  But I really do think something was there.

[TBR]

The car feels that way because it is overweight. Ultimately, the A8 isn't much more expensive, will have better resale value, looks better, and is much sportier, that is why the Phaeton didn't succeed.

[Raza]

The car feels that way because it is overweight. Ultimately, the A8 isn't much more expensive, will have better resale value, looks better, and is much sportier, that is why the Phaeton didn't succeed.

Looks are subjective, it is sportier, but that doesn't matter to everyone, and if you stuck an Audi badge on it, it would have better resale and you could sell it for more money.

You're kidding yourself if you think this doesn't come down to the badge.

[ifcar]

The badge is most of it. The car is the rest.

The Phaeton is a car that I really wanted to like, but just isn't good enough.  

[TBR]

The car feels that way because it is overweight. Ultimately, the A8 isn't much more expensive, will have better resale value, looks better, and is much sportier, that is why the Phaeton didn't succeed.

Looks are subjective, it is sportier, but that doesn't matter to everyone, and if you stuck an Audi badge on it, it would have better resale and you could sell it for more money.

You're kidding yourself if you think this doesn't come down to the badge.

Like I said earlier, the badge hurt but it would help if the car had any advantages over the competition (ignoring its "vault-likeness"), including the A8.  A car that is automatically handicapped with an inferior badge has to stand out in some way, and the Phaeton just didn't do that.

[ifcar]

The Phaeton's one strong point was its interior quality, stunning attention to detail. But it needed more.  

[TBR]

Isn't the A8's just as good?

[mazda6er]

Isn't the A8's just as good?

Of course. But it's still a strong point of the Phaeton as well.

[TBR]

But it needs to have a clear advantage over ALL of the competition in some way.  

[Raza]

But it needs to have a clear advantage over ALL of the competition in some way.

So it needs to be best in class, and the cheapest, to make up for having a "mainstream" badge?  If this were a Lexus, it would have sold several thousands.

[TBR]

No, it needs to be the best in class at something, and the current car isn't.  

[ifcar]

Isn't the A8's just as good?

I'm inclined to give the VW the edge. And I easily prefer the interior styling.