MRAP and the creeping militarisation of the police

[Soup DeVille]

You ignored the political ramifications of the Federal government selling "assault rifles" to the civilian population while attempting to ban them. And, technically, the Feds aren't "giving them away" to local government. They remain the property of the Federal government and cannot be sold or destroyed.

No, I didn't. I just agreed with you on that.

I mean, depending on who's definition you want to follow, they're already doing exacly that.

[bing_oh]

No, I didn't. I just agreed with you on that.

I mean, depending on who's definition you want to follow, they're already doing exacly that.

Quite simply, the Feds aren't going to sell surplus military equipment to the civilian population that still has use to the government (whether it be at the Federal, state, or local level). The program that distributes these to police departments is extremely popular and successful, as patrol rifles have regained a place in law enforcement but many departments are dealing with budget cuts that mean that those same rifles can't afford to be purchased.

[TurboDan]

Most of these military vehicles are given at no cost to the departments by the Feds. They're used military vehicles, designed for a military purpose, so they're generally over-armored for civilian use. However, it's a matter of either purchasing a LE-use model with adequate protection (usually at the cost in excess of $100k for an armored vehicle) or getting one for free with too much protection. Small departments with limited budgets don't hesitate to take the free ones, thus getting more than what they need while saving the local taxpayers money.

It's been a field day here since Hurricane Sandy for all of the local departments. If your city ever finds itself in an extended state of emergency declaration, the gravy train of ex-military vehicles, equipment, etc. is enormous. They have everything from these unarmored vehicles, to HMMWVs, to 25-foot Defender class former Coast Guard boats for the local police departments' marine patrols.

I don't really have a problem with any of this except for the Coast Guard boats given to one particular town. They were never used for any emergency purpose, and it's now a gigantic, daily ticket blitz on the water every day ever since the town (which, by the way, has a population of 500 and still has its own police department) obtained them. 

[Soup DeVille]

Quite simply, the Feds aren't going to sell surplus military equipment to the civilian population that still has use to the government (whether it be at the Federal, state, or local level). The program that distributes these to police departments is extremely popular and successful, as patrol rifles have regained a place in law enforcement but many departments are dealing with budget cuts that mean that those same rifles can't afford to be purchased.

They're already doing that, and have done so for years, with everything from trucks to mobile generators to boats. They don't want to do it with guns precisely because of the politics.

[bing_oh]

They're already doing that, and have done so for years, with everything from trucks to mobile generators to boats. They don't want to do it with guns precisely because of the politics.

Nearly everything that comes up as military surplus is first-dibs to local governments under these redistribution programs. To my knowledge, the military has never offered modern operational weapons for civilian purchase...they've been giving those to local and state agencies since at least the 1920's when PD's got Thompsons and BAR's from the military. The weapons offered under the CMP no longer have any military or government use. You can't tell me that politics alone has stopped the sale of military weapons to the civilian population for the last 100 years.

[Soup DeVille]

Nearly everything that comes up as military surplus is first-dibs to local governments under these redistribution programs. To my knowledge, the military has never offered modern operational weapons for civilian purchase...they've been giving those to local and state agencies since at least the 1920's when PD's got Thompsons and BAR's from the military. The weapons offered under the CMP no longer have any military or government use. You can't tell me that politics alone has stopped the sale of military weapons to the civilian population for the last 100 years.

For the last 100 years? No, of course it hasn't. That's how all those M1903 Springfields, Krag-Jorgensons, M1 Carbines and Garands, and real M1911s got into the civilian market in the first place. Yes, some were given to the police; some were sold outright at auction.

For the last 40? Sure it has.

[TurboDan]

They're already doing that, and have done so for years, with everything from trucks to mobile generators to boats. They don't want to do it with guns precisely because of the politics.

Fort Monmouth, NJ used to sell a lot of their boats when they reached a certain age. My family almost bought one, once, since my dad worked there at the time.

[TurboDan]

Well, SWAT teams aren't going to be popular after this one, even though it seems the officers did the right thing in the end...

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT

[Soup DeVille]

Well, SWAT teams aren't going to be popular after this one, even though it seems the officers did the right thing in the end...

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT

107?

Almost makes me think the guy wanted it to go down this way.

[bing_oh]

For the last 100 years? No, of course it hasn't. That's how all those M1903 Springfields, Krag-Jorgensons, M1 Carbines and Garands, and real M1911s got into the civilian market in the first place. Yes, some were given to the police; some were sold outright at auction.

For the last 40? Sure it has.

In the end, the Feds aren't going to spend money converting something that's still useful to the government so it can be sold on the civilian market. They don't refurbish the firearms sold by the CMP...they just grade them according to condition. They also don't refurbish equipment or weapons given to local government...they're delivered as-is and it's the receiving departments' responsibility to do repairs or modifications. The Feds simply aren't going to spend cash to convert full-auto weapons to semi auto so they can be sold easily on the civilian market when there are local government agencies who are on waiting lists for them as-is.

[bing_oh]

Well, SWAT teams aren't going to be popular after this one, even though it seems the officers did the right thing in the end...

http://www.thv11.com/news/article/278849/2/107-year-old-Arkansas-man-dies-in-shootout-with-SWAT

Look at the comments on NBC  News.com over this one. People bitching about how LE should have just backed off and waited him out or how it's impossible that he could have withstood the "gas" they tried to use or the flashbang after he started shooting and how it was a police execution. I don't see any other way this could have worked out. They tried everything they could have. They tried to negotiate. They tried less-than-lethal to subdue him. Hell, they continued less-than-lethal AFTER he had shot at them! I wouldn't be surprised if this was a suicide-by-cop.

[NomisR]

Look at the comments on NBC  News.com over this one. People bitching about how LE should have just backed off and waited him out or how it's impossible that he could have withstood the "gas" they tried to use or the flashbang after he started shooting and how it was a police execution. I don't see any other way this could have worked out. They tried everything they could have. They tried to negotiate. They tried less-than-lethal to subdue him. Hell, they continued less-than-lethal AFTER he had shot at them! I wouldn't be surprised if this was a suicide-by-cop.

Dude, they could've just waited a few more minutes and the guy would've die from old age anyways! 

[Secret Chimp]

I don't really like this "militarization of police" line people are starting to use. It only seems to serve to build into the "WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE" Alex Jones-type bullshit.

[S204STi]

Pretty much.

[hotrodalex]

It's not even militarization. Just getting an already-armored vehicle instead of making their own.

[Soup DeVille]

It's not even militarization. Just getting an already-armored vehicle instead of making their own.

MRAPs for what they are, were never really meant to serve as offensive vehicles. They were meant to be able to haul people around safely without getting blown up by mines or shot through. More of them have been equipped with mine clearing equipment like hydraulic rakes than have really been offensively armed.

They're also really small inside- they look massive, but that's because the entire passenger compartment is raised up away from the road and sits on top of a deflective armored shield. They also have entrance ways that almost look like a patio designed to keep a sniper from being able to clearly see the opening door until people are already gone through it, and limiting the lines of sight to the interior when it is open.

Get inside one, and the space is barely bigger than a mid sized SUV.
While they're not really offensive vehicles, I don't know how useful they're going to be for local police either.

[NomisR]

MRAPs for what they are, were never really meant to serve as offensive vehicles. They were meant to be able to haul people around safely without getting blown up by mines or shot through. More of them have been equipped with mine clearing equipment like hydraulic rakes than have really been offensively armed.

They're also really small inside- they look massive, but that's because the entire passenger compartment is raised up away from the road and sits on top of a deflective armored shield. They also have entrance ways that almost look like a patio designed to keep a sniper from being able to clearly see the opening door until people are already gone through it, and limiting the lines of sight to the interior when it is open.

Get inside one, and the space is barely bigger than a mid sized SUV.
While they're not really offensive vehicles, I don't know how useful they're going to be for local police either.

You can use it to ram shit.. they should work better than a pickup truck you'd hope..

[Soup DeVille]

You can use it to ram shit.. they should work better than a pickup truck you'd hope..

Yeah, there is that.

[bing_oh]

MRAPs for what they are, were never really meant to serve as offensive vehicles. They were meant to be able to haul people around safely without getting blown up by mines or shot through. More of them have been equipped with mine clearing equipment like hydraulic rakes than have really been offensively armed.

They're also really small inside- they look massive, but that's because the entire passenger compartment is raised up away from the road and sits on top of a deflective armored shield. They also have entrance ways that almost look like a patio designed to keep a sniper from being able to clearly see the opening door until people are already gone through it, and limiting the lines of sight to the interior when it is open.

Get inside one, and the space is barely bigger than a mid sized SUV.
While they're not really offensive vehicles, I don't know how useful they're going to be for local police either.

What you described (minus the mines) is essentially what LE uses armored vehicles for. They're used to get tactical teams to entry points safely when weapons fire is expected or to extract wounded under the same conditions. They're also sometimes used in breaching (either with a fixed ram or doing things like pulling security bars off of doors and windows). You don't need a bus to this kind of stuff.

[Soup DeVille]

What you described (minus the mines) is essentially what LE uses armored vehicles for. They're used to get tactical teams to entry points safely when weapons fire is expected or to extract wounded under the same conditions. They're also sometimes used in breaching (either with a fixed ram or doing things like pulling security bars off of doors and windows). You don't need a bus to this kind of stuff.

The ones I've seen are designed for ingress/egress from the rear, and its high up (for mine protection) it just seems much less convenient than your typical SWAT wagon (such as the Cadillac/Gage V100s).

[rohan]

You can use it to ram shit.. they should work better than a pickup truck you'd hope..

My last department had 2 (we only wanted one but the US govt told us to take both or take neither- we also got two Hummers we didn't want or need in the deal).  We put the 2 hummers and one of these monsters into the back of the county garage property and there they'll rot because we had no use for them.  The better of the big ones got repainted and rebuilt the A/C and is used for bringing SRT to the front door of an active shooter-barricaded gunman type situation where time is on our side.  It can also be used to either smash in or rip out fortified door systems on raids- etc.  The last reason was the LA shootout- it'll probably never happen here where officers are gunned down and lay bleeding in the streets like that but at least we have the vehicle to extricate them if it ever does happen.  There's some legitimate truth to the better to have and not need ideology.  As a guy who put these teams together and oversaw them it's vital to try to imagine every scenario that might pop up- even if it's unlikely to any degree- and try to at least have a training exercise and proper equipment to face them- after all we ARE responsible for ending these situations.

[Soup DeVille]

My last department had 2 (we only wanted one but the US govt told us to take both or take neither- we also got two Hummers we didn't want or need in the deal).  We put the 2 hummers and one of these monsters into the back of the county garage property and there they'll rot because we had no use for them.  The better of the big ones got repainted and rebuilt the A/C and is used for bringing SRT to the front door of an active shooter-barricaded gunman type situation where time is on our side.  It can also be used to either smash in or rip out fortified door systems on raids- etc.  The last reason was the LA shootout- it'll probably never happen here where officers are gunned down and lay bleeding in the streets like that but at least we have the vehicle to extricate them if it ever does happen.  There's some legitimate truth to the better to have and not need ideology.  As a guy who put these teams together and oversaw them it's vital to try to imagine every scenario that might pop up- even if it's unlikely to any degree- and try to at least have a training exercise and proper equipment to face them- after all we ARE responsible for ending these situations.

Why don't you just auction off the unwanted ones? Mil surp Hummers fetch a fair amount of coin.

[rohan]

I don't really like this "militarization of police" line people are starting to use. It only seems to serve to build into the "WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE" Alex Jones-type bullshit.

They've been using it for about 10 years- it's the new liberal "skynet/big brother is coming" BS.  What's really weird about it that they WANT big brother- just not police.  I don't get that.

[rohan]

Why don't you just auction off the unwanted ones? Mil surp Hummers fetch a fair amount of coin.

I'm not entirely sure- something about not being able to sell them for xxx number of years- gov't still owned them technically- something like that.  I was just last night talking with someone who said they're thinking of using the second one for a command post for the county.  LOL

[bing_oh]

I'm not entirely sure- something about not being able to sell them for xxx number of years- gov't still owned them technically- something like that.  I was just last night talking with someone who said they're thinking of using the second one for a command post for the county.  LOL

From what I know about the program (and I'm not the one at my department who got trained on the in's and out's of it, so I'm not that well versed), the equipment can only be transferred to another eligible organization (like another PD), never sold. There was a sheriff's office in Arizona who actually got the whole program suspended nationwide and a massive audit done on everything that's ever been given out because they were getting pallets and pallets of equipment and then turning around and auctioning it off for cash. It's a huge no-no since the stuff technically does still belong to the Feds and they have the right to come in and audit it, check it, and even take it back whenever they want.

[bing_oh]

I don't really like this "militarization of police" line people are starting to use. It only seems to serve to build into the "WE ARE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE" Alex Jones-type bullshit.

From a historical standpoint, it's actually kinda funny. Local PD's have been getting "military hardware" from the federal government for decades. PD's around the country got Thompson submachine guns and BAR's from the Feds when they were still considered state-of-the-art military weapons. I heard stories when I worked at Piqua PD about how they once had several Thompsons...they were supposedly disassembled and thrown into the Miami River in the 60's. There's a PD in an adjacent county that still has an original Thompson in their armory. There's nothing particularly new about local government getting hand-me-downs from the Feds.

[TurboDan]

They've been using it for about 10 years- it's the new liberal "skynet/big brother is coming" BS.  What's really weird about it that they WANT big brother- just not police.  I don't get that.

Cops tend not to be liberal weenies. So the left doesn't like them. 

[Raza]

They've been using it for about 10 years- it's the new liberal "skynet/big brother is coming" BS.  What's really weird about it that they WANT big brother- just not police.  I don't get that.

Who doesn't want a militarized force with essentially unlimited power that is generally not held accountable for its actions running free in their home town?

[Secret Chimp]

What if they can just get used MRAPs for cheaper than whichever bespoke $150k-box-on-a-Ford-chassis-cab SWAT thing they'd usually buy? It was designed for the military, oooh, scary, it's a fucking armored truck. Not a tank.

[Raza]

What if they can just get used MRAPs for cheaper than whichever bespoke $150k-box-on-a-Ford-chassis-cab SWAT thing they'd usually buy? It was designed for the military, oooh, scary, it's a fucking armored truck. Not a tank.

Is that a general question or to me specifically?  If it's to me, I haven't said anything about MRAPs specifically.