Super cheap, shitbox thread!

[MX793]

The way they made the 4.0 V6 a SOHC engine (timing gears on either end of the crankshaft, one gear for each cylinder head!) is a work of cheapass genius, though.

Actually, what they did was replace the original camshaft with an idler shaft with gears at both front and rear of the engine.  They then put one chain from the crank to the idler at one end of the engine and then ran chains from the idler to the cams in the heads at the other end of the motor.  It's really a pretty cost-effective way to convert a pushrod motor to OHC.  Sort of like how a pushrod motor was designed as a cost-effective way to convert L-head or flathead designs to OHV without completely redesigning the bottom end of the engine.

[MX793]

That's the strange thing about Ford right now. In the past one car was similar to another. Same kind of screws, clips and stuff like that. Now a Focus and a Fusion don't use any of the same shit. If you started taking one apart and the the other without knowing what a Ford was you'd think two these are from two different makers.

Focus was designed in Europe by one group of engineers, Fusion was designed in the US by a completely different group of people.  Since Ford EU's and Ford NA's engineering groups have operated independently from each other for so long, each has its own way of doing things.

[MX793]

It blows me away that manufacturers still have problems with basic part design

If you had a water pump design that worked before why would you change it drastically

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

Is it really a new design, or did they go to a different (cheaper) supplier that builds crappier parts?

As to why they might design a new water pump, with fuel economy being such a key parameter, the more efficient you can make any system that consumes power to run, the better.  Same reason you see electric and electro-hydraulic power steering systems and alternators that are on clutches so they only run when the battery is drained below a certain level.

[Onslaught]

Focus was designed in Europe by one group of engineers, Fusion was designed in the US by a completely different group of people.  Since Ford EU's and Ford NA's engineering groups have operated independently from each other for so long, each has its own way of doing things.

I know. But this isn't the first time one car has come from a different place. But back then you could see that both cars are Fords, now not so much.


But I'm happy about it. I can bring back my "you God damn fucking blue oval POS" talk when I'm working on one now. It's been years that I could just vent on how much I hate Ford at work. It didn't seem right not hating them for about 5 years. But they're back on my list!

[2o6]

It's not an engineering problem in this case, it's a combination of supplier and manufacturing issues.  There's one open recall to check and top off coolant level in a shitload of Acadia and Enclave vehicles due to incorrect fills at the factory... thing is, the PDA monkey should be catching that, and/or the tech who does the first oil change.  That low level can apparently burn up the seals.  In most cases however it's just a shitty part, and they need to fire their supplier.

I'm not keen on the LAMBDA cars, either (Outlook, Acadia, Enclave, Traverse).

- 3.6L likes stretching timing chains; the sedans (Aura, Malibu, some Equinoxes, new Caprice) seem to fare OK, but the big CUV's seem to stretch the hell out of them semi regularly. Maybe because the drivetrain is more stressed?

- The 6AT that motor is mated to, seems to be more fragile in the big CUV's (yet again, more stress?), yet in the Sedans they fare fine. The 6AT in the Vue (IIRC, the 6AT in the Equinox/Terrain is different), also seems to give out a little bit

- Getting to these parts (Timing Chain, trans) requires dropping the whole front subframe. In southern states, it is OK, but I question what will happen in 5 years with rust and shit in OH.



I figure if I worked at our Hyundai or Nissan locations, I wouldn't like those cars either.

[MX793]

I'm not keen on the LAMBDA cars, either (Outlook, Acadia, Enclave, Traverse).

- 3.6L likes stretching timing chains; the sedans (Aura, Malibu, some Equinoxes, new Caprice) seem to fare OK, but the big CUV's seem to stretch the hell out of them semi regularly. Maybe because the drivetrain is more stressed?

- The 6AT that motor is mated to, seems to be more fragile in the big CUV's (yet again, more stress?), yet in the Sedans they fare fine. The 6AT in the Vue (IIRC, the 6AT in the Equinox/Terrain is different), also seems to give out a little bit

- Getting to these parts (Timing Chain, trans) requires dropping the whole front subframe. In southern states, it is OK, but I question what will happen in 5 years with rust and shit in OH.



I figure if I worked at our Hyundai or Nissan locations, I wouldn't like those cars either.

A timing chain would be unaffected by how much load is put on the engine itself.  The only loads the timing chain sees are from drag of the cams. 

Transmissions failing due to being tasked to pull around extra load is entirely possible.

[S204STi]

I'm not keen on the LAMBDA cars, either (Outlook, Acadia, Enclave, Traverse).

- 3.6L likes stretching timing chains; the sedans (Aura, Malibu, some Equinoxes, new Caprice) seem to fare OK, but the big CUV's seem to stretch the hell out of them semi regularly. Maybe because the drivetrain is more stressed?

- The 6AT that motor is mated to, seems to be more fragile in the big CUV's (yet again, more stress?), yet in the Sedans they fare fine. The 6AT in the Vue (IIRC, the 6AT in the Equinox/Terrain is different), also seems to give out a little bit

- Getting to these parts (Timing Chain, trans) requires dropping the whole front subframe. In southern states, it is OK, but I question what will happen in 5 years with rust and shit in OH.



I figure if I worked at our Hyundai or Nissan locations, I wouldn't like those cars either.

The timing chain issue appears to be related to accelerated wear of the chain due to longer OCIs. A new pcm calibration is designed to address that.

The 6spd has several issues at the moment, the biggest ones being a metallurgy problem with the 3-5 wave plate, which literally breaks, and a manufacturing issue with improper torque at the valve body.

The subframe removal is thankfully relatively easy, but still I see your point there.

Found out that some of the coolant leaks on the 1.4 in the Cruze et al are due to improperly installed seals, and/or the water pump itself.

Overall, there are certainly a handful of big problems at GMs power train division at the moment. Buy a Ford.

[2o6]

The timing chain issue appears to be related to accelerated wear of the chain due to longer OCIs. A new pcm calibration is designed to address that.

The 6spd has several issues at the moment, the biggest ones being a metallurgy problem with the 3-5 wave plate, which literally breaks, and a manufacturing issue with improper torque at the valve body.

The subframe removal is thankfully relatively easy, but still I see your point there.

Found out that some of the coolant leaks on the 1.4 in the Cruze et al are due to improperly installed seals, and/or the water pump itself.

Overall, there are certainly a handful of big problems at GMs power train division at the moment. Buy a Ford.

Did you hear about the TSB for very early new Malibus and 2.5L ATS'es to test because they're leaving the factory SPINNING BEARINGS? That would be the most embarassing thing ever on a test drive.

[2o6]

"Date: November 01, 2012

Subject: 12270 Service Update for Inventory Vehicles Only Engine Crankshaft Noise Drive Audit Expires October 31, 2013

Models:
2013 Cadillac ATS
2013 Chevrolet Malibu
Equipped with 2.5L Engine (LCV)

This service update involves vehicles in dealer inventory only and will expire October 31, 2013.

Purpose

This bulletin provides a service procedure to perform a drive audit on certain 2013 model year Cadillac ATS and Chevrolet Malibu vehicles, equipped with a 2.5L engine (LCV). A small number of engines may develop a crankshaft bearing noise condition at low mileage. The drive audit must be completed before vehicle delivery (and in addition to normal pre-delivery inspection activities) to identify vehicles with the condition. If the condition is found, dealers are to replace the engine under the existing exchange program, see PI0768C for details.

This service procedure should be completed on involved vehicles currently in dealership inventory as soon as possible but no later than October 31, 2013, at which time this bulletin will expire.

Vehicles Involved

All involved vehicles are identified by VIN in the Global Warranty Management System - Investigate Vehicle History Application. Dealership technicians should always check this site to confirm vehicle involvement prior to beginning any required inspections and/or repairs. It is important to routinely use this tool to verify eligibility because not all similar vehicles may be involved regardless of description or option content.

Additionally, a list of involved vehicles currently in dealer inventory is available on the "Service Update Bulletin Information" link under the "Service" tab in GM GlobalConnect (US) or attached to the GlobalConnect message (Canada) used to release this bulletin.

Parts Information

No parts are required for the drive audit. If an engine replacement is necessary, contact the Product Quality Center as instructed in bulletin # PI0768C, Engine Exchange Program.

Service Procedure

Caution

-   Noise will be a low frequency clack (deep noise - not a click or whine noise) at about the frequency of a person tapping their finger as fast as they can.
-   If at any time during the test unusual engine noise develops stop the test and have the vehicle towed back to the dealership.
-   If the rod bearing is spun during this test, the vehicle will have to be towed back to the dealership.
-   Locate an area near the dealership where this procedure can be safely performed.
1.   Start vehicle and turn radio and HVAC off.
2.   Let idle for one minute listening for unusual engine noises.
-   If engine noise is heard, determine source of engine noise. Refer to SI if required.
-   If no engine noise is heard, proceed to the next step.
3.   Proceed to highway - obey all traffic laws.
4.   Starting at 30 mph (50 km/h) do a wide open throttle to 60 mph (100 km/h).
5.   Once vehicle speed reaches 60 mph (100 km/h), coast back down to 30 mph (50 km/h).
6.   Repeat Steps 4 and -5 a total of ten times.
7.   Return dealership, PUT VEHICLE IN PARK , shut off HVAC and all accessories, open hood, rev the engine to 3000-3,500 RPM, take foot off throttle and let RPM return to idle. Listen for unusual noises.
-   If no unusual noise is present, no further action is required.
-   If unusual noise is present, replace the engine following the instructions found in bulletin # PI0768C. Submit a warranty transaction for the drive audit using the labor code contained in this bulletin. Submit for the engine replacement under normal warranty.
Warranty Transaction Information"

[ifcar]

I'll bet the owner's manual doesn't recommend that style of driving during the break-in period.

[cawimmer430]

No 1980 Chevrolet Citation for us Classic Car Fans!? What the fuck!? 

[S204STi]

Did you hear about the TSB for very early new Malibus and 2.5L ATS'es to test because they're leaving the factory SPINNING BEARINGS? That would be the most embarassing thing ever on a test drive.

w0w

[Vinsanity]

- 3.6L likes stretching timing chains; the sedans (Aura, Malibu, some Equinoxes, new Caprice) seem to fare OK, but the big CUV's seem to stretch the hell out of them semi regularly. Maybe because the drivetrain is more stressed?

it's somewhat common on CTS's, actually (at least the 1st-gen non-DI ones), but supposedly can be avoided by maintaining proper motor oil levels. Additionally, oil consumption is also an issue with this engine, mine included.

[S204STi]

I honestly haven't looked into most of the technical data on this engine, since I don't really do engine repair anyway, but I'm curious as to whether the only provision for chain lubrication is dipping into the oil bath in the crank case?  I'm surprised that low oil level would contribute to that concern; meaning, I don't often see these without oil on the dipstick, perhaps .5qts low, which isn't huge over 5k miles.

[Soup DeVille]

I'm not keen on the LAMBDA cars, either (Outlook, Acadia, Enclave, Traverse).

- 3.6L likes stretching timing chains; the sedans (Aura, Malibu, some Equinoxes, new Caprice) seem to fare OK, but the big CUV's seem to stretch the hell out of them semi regularly. Maybe because the drivetrain is more stressed?

- The 6AT that motor is mated to, seems to be more fragile in the big CUV's (yet again, more stress?), yet in the Sedans they fare fine. The 6AT in the Vue (IIRC, the 6AT in the Equinox/Terrain is different), also seems to give out a little bit

- Getting to these parts (Timing Chain, trans) requires dropping the whole front subframe. In southern states, it is OK, but I question what will happen in 5 years with rust and shit in OH.



I figure if I worked at our Hyundai or Nissan locations, I wouldn't like those cars either.

Stress on the drivetrain in no way effects stress between the timing gear and the valvetrain. Its possible those vehicles run a more aggressive cam profile and/or have heavier valve springs.

[Vinsanity]

Going back through the Caddy forums, people's "advice" is all over the place, but this is the one that stuck out to me:

very important note here DO NOT let your car run low on oil, the timing chain tensioners depend on oil pressure and are on the end of the oil flow. If the oil pressure is low the tensioner will fail which can lead to horrific timing failure. Get in the habit of buying an extra quart or two and keeping it in the car. Every time you fill up check your oil and top off.

[Laconian]

Whoa, that's a pretty awful failure mode.

[Soup DeVille]

Whoa, that's a pretty awful failure mode.

Its not uncommon for K-series Hondas as well.

[MX793]

Its not uncommon for K-series Hondas as well.

How does the tensioner deal with engine startup when there is low/no oil pressure?  Or does it have a mechanism to prevent it from relaxing once pressure is removed?

[Vinsanity]

The s2k burned through quite a bit of oil as well, so I'm used to keeping an extra bottle or jug of motor oil handy.

The challenging part for me is that the oil reading on the dipstick varies a lot, depending on if the engine's cold or if it's warmed up.

[Soup DeVille]

How does the tensioner deal with engine startup when there is low/no oil pressure?  Or does it have a mechanism to prevent it from relaxing once pressure is removed?

There's a mechanical spring, but I don't think it applies enough tension for high RPM service.

My Civic (and most Hondas) was geared really short, so commutes at 4500 RPM+ weren't uncommon.

[Madman]

The challenging part for me is that the oil reading on the dipstick varies a lot, depending on if the engine's cold or if it's warmed up.

I noticed the same thing in my Odyssey.  In order to get consistent readings, I made it a point to only check the oil when the engine was stone cold.

I wonder if this is a common issue with Hondas?

[Soup DeVille]

I noticed the same thing in my Odyssey.  In order to get consistent readings, I made it a point to only check the oil when the engine was stone cold.

I wonder if this is a common issue with Hondas?

It is. Why can only partially be blamed on the way VTEC works, but it's not all of it.

[MX793]

I noticed the same thing in my Odyssey.  In order to get consistent readings, I made it a point to only check the oil when the engine was stone cold.

I wonder if this is a common issue with Hondas?

The s2k burned through quite a bit of oil as well, so I'm used to keeping an extra bottle or jug of motor oil handy.

The challenging part for me is that the oil reading on the dipstick varies a lot, depending on if the engine's cold or if it's warmed up.

You always have to let a motor sit for a few minutes after running before checking the oil level.  When running, oil is pumped throughout the engine (including up into the head) and it takes a few minutes for it all to flow back into the oil pan at the bottom of the engine.  This is readily apparent in a motorcycle which uses a sight-glass to indicate oil level.  Fire the motor up and you'll find that the sight-glass goes empty almost immediately.  Shut the motor off and it doesn't immediately refill the sight-glass, it takes a couple of minutes and you'll see the level in the sight glass start to rise back up to where it's supposed to be.

[Soup DeVille]

You always have to let a motor sit for a few minutes after running before checking the oil level.  When running, oil is pumped throughout the engine (including up into the head) and it takes a few minutes for it all to flow back into the oil pan at the bottom of the engine.  This is readily apparent in a motorcycle which uses a sight-glass to indicate oil level.  Fire the motor up and you'll find that the sight-glass goes empty almost immediately.  Shut the motor off and it doesn't immediately refill the sight-glass, it takes a couple of minutes and you'll see the level in the sight glass start to rise back up to where it's supposed to be.

On both the S2000 and the Civic, even after sitting for a few minutes it would read as low.

[MX793]

On both the S2000 and the Civic, even after sitting for a few minutes it would read as low.

VTEC uses oil pressure, there was probably more oil going to the head which means it takes that much long for it all to find its way back to the pan.

[Soup DeVille]

VTEC uses oil pressure, there was probably more oil going to the head which means it takes that much long for it all to find its way back to the pan.

Well, that's what I said before: but it doesn't seem like that accounts for all of it. The VTEC actuator itself isn't very big.

[Madman]

You always have to let a motor sit for a few minutes after running before checking the oil level.  When running, oil is pumped throughout the engine (including up into the head) and it takes a few minutes for it all to flow back into the oil pan at the bottom of the engine.  This is readily apparent in a motorcycle which uses a sight-glass to indicate oil level.  Fire the motor up and you'll find that the sight-glass goes empty almost immediately.  Shut the motor off and it doesn't immediately refill the sight-glass, it takes a couple of minutes and you'll see the level in the sight glass start to rise back up to where it's supposed to be.

I understand all of that.  It just seemed to take an inordinate amount of time for all the oil to settle into the bottom of the engine.  I soon became accustomed to checking the oil first thing in the morning, after the car had been sitting overnight.  It was the only way to guarantee an accurate reading.  I've never had to do this with any other car.

[MX793]

Well, that's what I said before: but it doesn't seem like that accounts for all of it. The VTEC actuator itself isn't very big.

If the flow paths through the head are very tight, the oil may take a while to flow back down by gravity feed alone.

[Soup DeVille]

If the flow paths through the head are very tight, the oil may take a while to flow back down by gravity feed alone.

Clearly, there's some very sensible explanation.