Leaf owner arrested for plugging in at school

[TurboDan]

So is it really stupid laws or simply stupid LE and prosecutors taking existing laws to the extreme?

That's a case-by-case basis type of thing. Under normal circumstances, maybe this would be a LEO taking the law to an extreme. But if you have a belligerent person on your hands, what choice do you have? If this guy said, "oh, hey, sorry I didn't know it was a problem, I'll unplug the car," the cop probably would've bid him a good day.

[TurboDan]

Well, what about using the school's water fountain to fill up your sports bottle?  That's actually more similar to the outlet scenario than the neighbor's water hose.

The water fountains are expressly placed for public usage. The outlets are not.

[Soup DeVille]

The water fountains are expressly placed for public usage. The outlets are not.

How can we be sure?

Lots of places now have convenience outlets.

[TurboDan]

How can we be sure?

Lots of places now have convenience outlets.

Yeah, I know, and maybe there needs to be a local ordinance that codifies it. But some things should be common-sense. Assholes who own Nissan Leaves think that because they're "saving the environment" they are entitled to things including, apparently, electricity I as a taxpayer might pay for at BOE-owned buildings.

As has been said already, what's the difference between this clown charging up using a BOE-owned outlet or me swinging my SUV around to the BOE school bus fuel pumps to fill up the tank?

[Soup DeVille]

Yeah, I know, and maybe there needs to be a local ordinance that codifies it. But some things should be common-sense. Assholes who own Nissan Leaves think that because they're "saving the environment" they are entitled to things including, apparently, electricity I as a taxpayer might pay for at BOE-owned buildings.

As has been said already, what's the difference between this clown charging up using a BOE-owned outlet or me swinging my SUV around to the BOE school bus fuel pumps to fill up the tank?

The difference is that one is widely accepted to be theft and the other is questionable.

[bing_oh]

The difference is that one is widely accepted to be theft and the other is questionable.

"Widely accepted to be theft" isn't generally part of the law.

[Soup DeVille]

"Widely accepted to be theft" isn't generally part of the law.

Mens Rea is though. If it is arguable that the "thief" did not perceive that he was doing anything wrong, then it is also arguable that he cannot be convicted.

[bing_oh]

Mens Rea is though. If it is arguable that the "thief" did not perceive that he was doing anything wrong, then it is also arguable that he cannot be convicted.

Depends on the statute, actually. There's more than one mental state under the law. Some laws have the mental state of "knowingly" as a part of the statute, while others have "recklessly" or "negligently." You could also easily argue that he plugged his little toy car into a socket that didn't belong to him, taking electricity that a person of normal mental faculties would know does not belong to them. Perception isn't generally based upon what the offender thought as much as what a normal citizen would think.

[Soup DeVille]

Depends on the statute, actually. There's more than one mental state under the law. Some laws have the mental state of "knowingly" as a part of the statute, while others have "recklessly" or "negligently." You could also easily argue that he plugged his little toy car into a socket that didn't belong to him, taking electricity that a person of normal mental faculties would know does not belong to them. Perception isn't generally based upon what the offender thought as much as what a normal citizen would think.

Hence my use of the term "widely understood."

[Tave]

I think any adult with the financial means to purchase an automobile would have a hard time convincing a jury that he didn't know the school pays a utility bill for the electricity it consumes.

[Soup DeVille]

I think any adult with the financial means to purchase an automobile would have a hard time convincing a jury that he didn't know the school pays a utility bill for the electricity it consumes.

Completely beside the point.

Parks pay all kinds of bills for their upkeep. That doesn't mean they're not for public use.

[Tave]

But this wasn't a park, and school facilities are generally not open to the public. Could you walk into your local high school and start using their fax machine? Why would anyone assume that they have implicit permission as a taxpayer to start plugging in powertools to their neighborhood school?

[giant_mtb]

Completely beside the point.

Parks pay all kinds of bills for their upkeep. That doesn't mean they're not for public use.

What do you mean?  Taxes and such fund parks.  Therefore, we get to use and enjoy them.  If you want to start using extra electricity at the park to charge your Leaf, somebody has to pay for it.  Which means taxes go up.  This is why you often have to pay to rent public parks for large events and/or or pay fees for utility use.

[NomisR]

But this wasn't a park, and school facilities are generally not open to the public. Could you walk into your local high school and start using their fax machine? Why would anyone assume that they have implicit permission as a taxpayer to start plugging in powertools to their neighborhood school?

But it depends on the school and their facility.  And again, the guy was taking a tennis lesson at the school, and assuming the instructor has permission to use the tennis court, he has permission to use the facility including the water fountain as a part of implied consent.  And if there's an outlet at the tennis court, he can plug in his tennis ball machine or whatever radio that he may have and play music or would that be considered stealing? 

I mean, if someone uses a pen while signing in at school end up taking that pen, do you actually arrest that person for theft?  Would police actually do it? 

[Soup DeVille]

But this wasn't a park, and school facilities are generally not open to the public. Could you walk into your local high school and start using their fax machine? Why would anyone assume that they have implicit permission as a taxpayer to start plugging in powertools to their neighborhood school?

Most school playgrounds and many facilities are indeed open to the public outside of school hours.

[Soup DeVille]

What do you mean?  Taxes and such fund parks.  Therefore, we get to use and enjoy them.  If you want to start using extra electricity at the park to charge your Leaf, somebody has to pay for it.  Which means taxes go up.  This is why you often have to pay to rent public parks for large events and/or or pay fees for utility use.

Le sigh...

Where do you define what constitutes "extra" energy? What is a large event?

If the park/school in question does not have explicit rules concerning whether or not plugging in your car is an acceptable use (and most don't), then it's very much a judgement call on whether or not it is.

That's a long way from theft.

[NomisR]

Le sigh...

Where do you define what constitutes "extra" energy? What is a large event?

If the park/school in question does not have explicit rules concerning whether or not plugging in your car is an acceptable use (and most don't), then it's very much a judgement call on whether or not it is.

That's a long way from theft.

And a Leaf from a 120V outlet would be drawing at most 3.3kWh of energy per hour anyways, which is probably around $0.27 of electricity if that.  People think these EVs draws huge amount of power and simply plugging it in would sap $20-30 worth of power immediately.. hell, it even shows on these EV charging station that's charging $2.00 per hour of charge, really now??  It means that it'll cost more per mile than a petro car in Europe. 

[Tave]

Most school playgrounds and many facilities are indeed open to the public outside of school hours.

Playgrounds? Sure. Facilities? Occasionally, but under the oversight of a school official or volunteer tasked with similar responsibility. More importantly, the people using them are given permission and limited access. They can't use the building at their own pleasure. It's not a park and no one treats it as such. Strangers don't just walk in, take a drink from the fountain, and pull up a seat in a hall to read the newspaper.

Just because the city rec league makes arrangements for me to play basketball at a middle school gym, doesn't mean I can take all the crayons from the art room.

[Tave]

And a Leaf from a 120V outlet would be drawing at most 3.3kWh of energy per hour anyways, which is probably around $0.27 of electricity if that.  People think these EVs draws huge amount of power and simply plugging it in would sap $20-30 worth of power immediately.. hell, it even shows on these EV charging station that's charging $2.00 per hour of charge, really now??  It means that it'll cost more per mile than a petro car in Europe.

I represented a guy the other day charged with stealing a $2 Coors Light tallboy from a gas station.

[Soup DeVille]

Playgrounds? Sure. Facilities? Occasionally, but under the oversight of a school official or volunteer tasked with similar responsibility. More importantly, the people using them are given permission and don't enjoy unrestricted access to the entire campus.

Just because the city rec league makes arrangements for me to play basketball at a middle school gym, doesn't mean I can take all the crayons from the art room.

And where does the tennis court lay? Not in the art room, surely.

[Tave]

And where does the tennis court lay? Not in the art room, surely.

He wasn't arrested for using the tennis court.

[Soup DeVille]

He wasn't arrested for using the tennis court.

Why not?

[NomisR]

He wasn't arrested for using the tennis court.

Well, based on the statement by the city and sheriff, apparently the complaint by the school was for trespassing and not for theft even though the warrant was for theft. 

[NomisR]

I represented a guy the other day charged with stealing a $2 Coors Light tallboy from a gas station.

One you can clearly prove the possession of stolen good, someone else's property on him, and another, you can only assume property was stolen.  There's no proof, just because the guy's plugged in, you unless you can measure the actual usage at the time from that exact outlet, there's no way for them to prove anything was actually taken.  You have to remember that these EVs allows for delayed charging too.  And even then, how do you prove anything was actually taken?   Again, using a drinking foutain at a tennis court is theft?  Or is using an outlet at the tennis court to charge your phone theft? 

This whole thing seems like it was simply done to inconvenience the guy and nothing more.  The charges won't stick.

[Tave]

One you can clearly prove the possession of stolen good, someone else's property on him, and another, you can only assume property was stolen.  There's no proof, just because the guy's plugged in, you unless you can measure the actual usage at the time from that exact outlet, there's no way for them to prove anything was actually taken.  You have to remember that these EVs allows for delayed charging too.  And even then, how do you prove anything was actually taken?   Again, using a drinking foutain at a tennis court is theft?  Or is using an outlet at the tennis court to charge your phone theft? 

This whole thing seems like it was simply done to inconvenience the guy and nothing more.  The charges won't stick.

I would agree that it appears to be a weak case. FWIW, apparently the outlet wasn't at the court itself and the guy had to block a loading dock to access it.

[NomisR]

I would agree that it appears to be a weak case. FWIW, apparently the outlet wasn't at the court itself and the guy had to block a loading dock to access it.

Yeah, true, but the whole issue shouldn't even involve jail.  There's also another issue of warrant-less search of the Leaf owner's car.

And then of course, using something as petty as this in order to "punish" or inconvenience a douche bag is  a bit disturbing.  Even if all the charges were dropped, simply having someone go through this, is troubling.  This can be something that can happen to anyone..

[bing_oh]

There's also another issue of warrant-less search of the Leaf owner's car.

A non-issue. Assuming it was a legitimate unlawful warrantless search of his car (and, given that vehicles frequently fall under warrant exceptions, that is not necessarily the case...nor are warrantless searches per se unreasonable or illegal), nothing indicated that anything found in the car is being used against him. The remedy of an unlawful warrantless search is the evidentiary loss of anything recovered. Nothing recovered from the search = no loss.

[bing_oh]

I represented a guy the other day charged with stealing a $2 Coors Light tallboy from a gas station.

Exactly. The amount of the loss does not have any bearing on whether the charges are legitimate. Generally, the cost of what is taken only have a bearing on the degree of offense (ie, the theft of items of greater value may result in higher-level charges).

[TurboDan]

A non-issue. Assuming it was a legitimate unlawful warrantless search of his car (and, given that vehicles frequently fall under warrant exceptions, that is not necessarily the case...nor are warrantless searches per se unreasonable or illegal), nothing indicated that anything found in the car is being used against him. The remedy of an unlawful warrantless search is the evidentiary loss of anything recovered. Nothing recovered from the search = no loss.

I think it goes to a little bit deeper of an issue. If the goal was to find out who owned the car, the officer could have simply run the plate. The fact that he opened the door and rummaged through the glove box indicates to me that he was salivating over the prospect of trying to find something illegal in the process. That bothers me.

[Raza]

Yeah, I know, and maybe there needs to be a local ordinance that codifies it. But some things should be common-sense. Assholes who own Nissan Leaves think that because they're "saving the environment" they are entitled to things including, apparently, electricity I as a taxpayer might pay for at BOE-owned buildings.

As has been said already, what's the difference between this clown charging up using a BOE-owned outlet or me swinging my SUV around to the BOE school bus fuel pumps to fill up the tank?

Oh, so all of a sudden, we're for regulation when it comes to outlets?  Very inconsistent.