VW says it has sold over 100,000 TDI diesels in America this year

[giant_mtb]

Most diesel motors are wayyy heavier than a comparable gasoline motor.



A Diesel Cruze is about (at least) 300lbs heavier than an identically equipped LTZ 1.4T auto Cruze.

joke  [johk] 
noun

1.  something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.

[2o6]

joke  [johk] 
noun

1.  something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.

Yeah, and it wasn't funny.

[giant_mtb]

Yeah, and it wasn't funny.

Pfffffffff

[cawimmer430]

No. One's a Golf in fancy clothes, and the other is for all intents and purposes a small family car with two doors.

Weird.

Because virtually every single car magazine out there defines both of these cars as SPORTS CARS.

Let me guess. In your book, an Audi TTS or TTRS = Sports Car. But a diesel-powered Audi TT 2.0 TDI Quattro isn't a sports car. Right?

A BMW 1M Coupe or 135i Coupe is a sports car. Right? A BMW 123d Coupe on the other hand, since it's powered by the fuel of Satan, isn't a sports car. Right? 

[12,000 RPM]

Here are some of the current diesel-powered SPORTS CARS available on the European market today.

Audi TT Coupé 2.0 TDI Quattro
BMW 123d Coupe
BMW M550i XDrive
BMW Alpina D3 Bi-Turbo Coupé / Sedan / Touring
BMW Alpina D5 Bi-Turbo Sedan / Touring
Mercedes SLK250 CDI
Peugeot RCZ 2.0 HDI
Porsche Panamera Diesel
Volkswagen Golf GTD
Volkswagen Scirocco 2.0 TDI

The SLK is *barely* a sports car. The rest are not.

And the only reason most of these cars exist is not because people genuinely want diesel performance cars. It is because the EU's asinine fuel taxes and stance on consumption forces people into cars like this. Again, in places where fuel is at its natural price, nobody wants diesel performance cars, because without $10/gallon gas they don't make sense.

And again, only the SLK is a sports car and that is marginal. The rest of these cars all have 4 seats, and in some cases 4 doors. Please find me a magazine that calls a Panamera a sports car.

[Madman]

Sports car
— noun
A production car designed for speed, high acceleration, and manoeuvrability, having a low body and usually adequate seating for only two persons.


An Audi TT or a Merc SLK fits this definition.  However, a 1 series coupe does not since it has essentially the same tall body as the 1 series hatch and a somewhat usable back seat.  Therefore, the 1 series is a coupe and not a sports car.  You could describe it as a "sporty" car.  Most cars at least pay lip service to having "sporty" characteristics these days.  But that still doesn't make the 1 series a sports car in the true definition of the word.

[giant_mtb]

You guys are pickier than a cactus about "definitions" of cars. Holy helllllllll

[Byteme]

Something else to consider:
Diesel fumes more damaging to health than petrol enginesMinistry report says 'green' cars contribute significantly to air pollution and lung diseases

   
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• John Vidal, environment editor   

   
• The Observer,                         Saturday 26 January 2013

   
• Jump to comments (58)

Diesel exhaust fumes can contribute to asthma, lung disease and heart attacks. Photograph: GettyDiesel fumes are significantly more damaging to health than those from petrol engines, according to research which shows that related air pollution contributes to lung disease, heart attacks, asthma and other respiratory problems.
The findings, published by the Department for Energy and Climate Change, are an embarrassment for successive governments, which have encouraged a switch to diesel since 2001 by linking road and company car tax to CO₂ emissions. Diesel engines have been billed as "green" by car makers, governments and environmental groups because they are more fuel-efficient and emit less CO₂ than petrol. Vehicles with low fuel economy and high CO₂ emissions are further penalised by higher fuel duty tax, while diesels with the lowest CO₂ emissions are not subject to road tax or congestion charges. Insurance premiums are also affected by cars' CO₂ status. Last year diesel car sales overtook those of petrol-fuelled cars for the first time. Petrol car sales are now 15% lower than in 2011.
The government accepts that air pollution from all sources contributes to about 30,000 deaths a year in Britain. But the research estimates that diesel-related health problems cost the NHS more than 10 times as much as comparable problems caused by petrol fumes. Last year the UN's World Health Organisation declared that diesel exhaust caused cancer and was comparable in its effects to secondary cigarette smoking.
Anti-pollution groups, already furious that the government has failed to meet EU air pollution legal limits, say no account is being taken of the health damage done by diesel fumes because CO₂ emissions are seen as the sole benchmark for environmental responsibility.
Last week Simon Birkett, founder of the Campaign for Clean Air in London watchdog group, accused the government of deliberately exacerbating health problems by in effect subsidising diesel. "Successive governments have known all about the [health] problems of diesel but have failed to react and covered them up. They have known for a long time that diesel is the main source of pollution in cities and have continued to subsidise it," he said. Air pollution from all sources, including transport, was calculated by the Commons environmental audit committee to cost Britain up to £20bn a year. "Air quality is a hidden killer but it's not on anyone's radar and its costs are not factored in by the Treasury. This is the unintended consequence of ignoring it," said Joan Walley, the committee's chair.
Partly as a result of the rising number of diesel vehicles, London is regularly failing to meet EU air pollution targets, say experts. "Emission regulations have been ineffective for diesel cars," said Martin Williams, chair of the UN's convention on long-range transboundary air pollution. "Levels of nitrogen oxide emissions, for instance, haven't fallen significantly over the past 20 years."
A Campaign for Clean Air in London report, due to be published next month, will claim that car company figures for diesel pollution are unreliable and that actual emissions are probably far greater. "Just as most most drivers struggle to match a car's official fuel economy figures in everyday driving, emissions of air pollutants in real world driving conditions differ from those suggested by the vehicle's [Euro] standard," it will say.
A 2011 test by government to measure  emissions from vehicles in everyday use concluded that, while petrol emissions had improved by 96%, "emissions of NOx [nitrogen oxide from diesel cars and light goods vehicles] have not decreased for the past 15-20 years".
A spokesman for Transport for London said: "The congestion charge was designed to reduce traffic rather than pollution. It is not an overriding objective to reduce pollution rather than congestion."
Major cities in India and elsewhere have become increasingly aware of the health costs of diesel exhausts and are considering imposing higher taxes on diesel cars or even banning them from city centres.

[Raza]

So an Audi TT or BMW 1er Coupe isn't a "sports car"?

No.  The TT is a GT car, the 1 series is a coupe. 

[Raza]

Weird.

Because virtually every single car magazine out there defines both of these cars as SPORTS CARS.

Let me guess. In your book, an Audi TTS or TTRS = Sports Car. But a diesel-powered Audi TT 2.0 TDI Quattro isn't a sports car. Right?

A BMW 1M Coupe or 135i Coupe is a sports car. Right? A BMW 123d Coupe on the other hand, since it's powered by the fuel of Satan, isn't a sports car. Right? 

No.  And please find me a magazine that considers them a sports car.  And mind you, competing with a sports car does not make it a sports car.

The TT and 1 series have too many seats.  The 1 series is a coupe in a line of small family cars that include a hatchback.  It's no more a sports car than a Civic or Accord coupe.  The TT is FWD or AWD.  And that's not even mentioning that they are both closed top (although the TT is available as an open top car, it's still disqualified for other reasons).

Sports car is not determined by performance.  If Honda were to come out with a diesel version of the S2000 or Porsche a diesel Boxster, they would both still be sports cars. 

[Raza]

The SLK is *barely* a sports car. The rest are not.

And the only reason most of these cars exist is not because people genuinely want diesel performance cars. It is because the EU's asinine fuel taxes and stance on consumption forces people into cars like this. Again, in places where fuel is at its natural price, nobody wants diesel performance cars, because without $10/gallon gas they don't make sense.

And again, only the SLK is a sports car and that is marginal. The rest of these cars all have 4 seats, and in some cases 4 doors. Please find me a magazine that calls a Panamera a sports car.

SLK is a hardtop convertible, which makes it a GT in my book. 

[MX793]

No.  And please find me a magazine that considers them a sports car.  And mind you, competing with a sports car does not make it a sports car.

The TT and 1 series have too many seats.  The 1 series is a coupe in a line of small family cars that include a hatchback.  It's no more a sports car than a Civic or Accord coupe.  The TT is FWD or AWD.  And that's not even mentioning that they are both closed top (although the TT is available as an open top car, it's still disqualified for other reasons).

Sports car is not determined by performance.  If Honda were to come out with a diesel version of the S2000 or Porsche a diesel Boxster, they would both still be sports cars. 

Since when do drive wheels define a sports car?  Or are you going to tell me that the M100 Lotus Elan wasn't a sports car...

[Madman]

SLK is a hardtop convertible, which makes it a GT in my book. 

The SLK is a two seater, which qualifies it as a sports car.

[Madman]

Since when do drive wheels define a sports car?  Or are you going to tell me that the M100 Lotus Elan wasn't a sports car...

It doesn't.  The M100 Elan, the Fiat Barchetta and the early '90s Mercury Capri are all sports cars.  Drive wheels are irrelevant in this context.

[veeman]

There is a true dictionary definition and common vernacular usage.

As an analogy - according to a botanist a fruit is a part of the plant that develops from the flower and also the section of plant which contains seeds.  The stems, leaves, roots, and flower buds of a plant are vegetables.  So beans, cucumbers, corn kernels, pumpkins, squash, and tomatoes are all fruits; not vegetables.  From a culinary perspective however which is the commonly used vernacular (both in conversation and print), vegetables are less sweet than fruits typically, more savory, and used as part of the main dish whereas fruits are sweet or tart and usually served as a dessert or snack.  A banana is technically both a fruit and an herb but the common vernacular is to treat it as a fruit, and not an herb.

Regardless of the true definition of a sports car which is frankly outdated and not the common vernacular, a Nissan GT-R can be rightly called a Sports Car even though it has a back seat and is quite heavy.  True, it is technically not, but the common vernacular usage which is used in everyday language by car salesman and print media alike, refer to the vehicle as such.

In the Nissan USA website itself, under the heading of SPORTS CAR, it lists the Nissan GT-R. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

Since when do drive wheels define a sports car?  Or are you going to tell me that the M100 Lotus Elan wasn't a sports car...

If the Elan is a sports car, then so is the Accent. The specs are so close it's not funny. 1.6L DOHC I4, FF, 5spd, 110 - 130 hp, 2200-2400 lbs, and right now the Accent's rear seats are folded down, so......

[Raza]

Since when do drive wheels define a sports car?  Or are you going to tell me that the M100 Lotus Elan wasn't a sports car...

I've always considered it RWD only, others don't feel the same way.  I mean, evo, for example, considers the FWD Fiat Barchetta a sports car.  I think AWD definitely discounts it as a sports car in my opinion, and while FWD open top two seaters are very rare, I don't think they really count either.  I mean, if so, the Mini Cooper Roadster is a sports car.

[Raza]

The SLK is a two seater, which qualifies it as a sports car.

I disagree.  While it is open top, the fact that it's a hardtop convertible, which is a more comfort-oriented decision, makes it a GT. 

[12,000 RPM]

The SLK is a two seater, which qualifies it as a sports car.

Is a regular cab Ranger a sports car too?

The definition is not a hard line, but I think we can all agree that Wimmer's definition of a sports car, which is apparently anything that can do 0-60 in under 8 seconds, is too broad.

[Char]

Diesel cars are boring, slow and heavy and no one really cares. Factor in the higher base price and higher fuel cost - we still don't care.
http://jalopnik.com/are-europes-high-mpg-diesels-actually-crap-1328011015

[2o6]

All of these catagories are marketing terms. A sports car is generally whatever the manufacturer says it is.

[GoCougs]

Diesel cars are boring, slow and heavy and no one really cares. Factor in the higher base price and higher fuel cost - we still don't care.
http://jalopnik.com/are-europes-high-mpg-diesels-actually-crap-1328011015

Couldn't agree more. It's a fad I hope that passes rather quickly.

[2o6]

Isnt a Diesel a by product of refining gas anyways? seems a little wasteful not to use it...

[GoCougs]

Isnt a Diesel a by product of refining gas anyways? seems a little wasteful not to use it...

I don't know. Either way diesel industrial use (esp. marine and heavy equipment) will be around for a long long time...

[Tave]

Has anyone had a chance to compare VW's TDI in the new Golf/Jetta/Passat to the gasoline options? How much power does it feel like it gives up in everyday/spirited driving?

[Raza]

All of these catagories are marketing terms. A sports car is generally whatever the manufacturer says it is.

Are "sedan" and "wagon" marketing terms also?

[2o6]

Are "sedan" and "wagon" marketing terms also?

Slippery slope.



But yes, they are.

[CALL_911]

Has anyone had a chance to compare VW's TDI in the new Golf/Jetta/Passat to the gasoline options? How much power does it feel like it gives up in everyday/spirited driving?

I have. I compared a Golf TDI to my Golf GTI. The GTI is quicker and more exciting (obviously), but there is plenty to be said for the TDI's crazy low-end push. It had a lot of midrange power too. But the GTI is noticeably quicker and (again, obviously) sounds way better.

[Soup DeVille]

All of these catagories are marketing terms. A sports car is generally whatever the manufacturer says it is.

Nope.

Else, the Elantra GT would haunt my dreams.


A sports car is an open, two place car, that in a pinch can be raced.

[Soup DeVille]

Isnt a Diesel a by product of refining gas anyways? seems a little wasteful not to use it...

Diesel can be refractionated into gasoline and butane or propane.