Motorist gives homeless man spare change and is detained by police

[Rupert]

Of course you can't let people run from the police. But you guys are diverting the debate into an area where you think you can win, ignoring that we aren't talking about actual known drug dealers; we're talking about a dude who's innocent of everything but having tint or loud music (etc.) getting searched for no good moral reason.

[Soup DeVille]

So, you are saying you want the flow of heroin, crack, meth, krokodil, etc. to grow unfettered?

Nice strawman. Yes, that's exactly what I said, isn't it?

[Soup DeVille]

Yea, because using a traffic violation to stop a guy whom we have information on regarding being a meth dealer and carrying a firearm (actual stop that ended in a pursuit and arrest at my department recently) is ridiculous, right?

No, I'm talking about using profiling to find an excuse to pull over a random dude, and then finding a way to search that car because that dude just might have some pot on him being ridiculous. I'm not talking about following up on actual leads or real information.

[hounddog]

Nice strawman. Yes, that's exactly what I said, isn't it?

Actually, it is not.

You specifically said "enforcement of ridiculous drug laws", which is terrifically non-specific and vague, ergo; no straw man and my question remains valid and on point. 

[hounddog]

No, I'm talking about using profiling to find an excuse to pull over a random dude, and then finding a way to search that car because that dude just might have some pot on him being ridiculous. I'm not talking about following up on actual leads or real information.

You are assuming randomness.

[Soup DeVille]

Actually, it is not.

You specifically said "enforcement of ridiculous drug laws", which is terrifically non-specific and vague, ergo; no straw man and my question remains valid and on point. 

I'm not complaining about the laws which aren't ridiculous. They do exist too.

[Soup DeVille]

You are assuming randomness.

I'm following your lead, which specifically stated that people get pulled over because they it certain criteria. In that way, no it's not entirely random. It's essentially playing the odds though.

What Bing countered with was a scenario in which a suspect had already been identified is pulled over, which is an entirely different situation.

[hounddog]

I'm following your lead, which specifically stated that people get pulled over because they it certain criteria. In that way, no it's not entirely random. It's essentially playing the odds though.

"Odds" are a mathematical equation and are predictable to a certain extent.

And, the profile was put together by experts in the field of LE, psychology, criminal behaviorists, lawyers, etc.  There is actually very little left to randomness save for perhaps the tried and true, proven use of profiling vehicles.  FWIW, even vehicle profiling is performed based on a fairly extensive set of data, and is part of the overall MAG approved profile packet, which makes it not very random.

I think "luck" of people who are doing things wrong, and being in that place when interdiction is going on is most likely thee most random thing about interdiction.

Remember, these things have to be articulable in front of a judge and jury, and must rise to meet elements of a crime to go forward with charges, and, to keep from being sued for "randomness" or whatever.

What Bing countered with was a scenario in which a suspect had already been identified is pulled over, which is an entirely different situation.

I was responding solely to the "random" statement.

I'm not complaining about the laws which aren't ridiculous. They do exist too.

You statement was, and still is, vague.  That vagueness is what I responded to, and to which you still have yet to really make a coherent response. 

"enforcement of ridiculous drug laws" does not discriminate between which laws you subjectively find ridiculous.  Neither is saying "They do exist too."   

So, again, my post and question remain valid and on topic, and correspondingly, remain on the table; So, you are saying you want the flow of heroin, crack, meth, krokodil, etc. to grow unfettered?

[Soup DeVille]

There are some drug laws which are nonsensical, and some which are justified.

Asking for a complete rundown of which are which is a little much, but it's enough to say that when entire states have legalized their use and others consider them felonies, it's hard to find the sense in them.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

You are assuming randomness.

So EVERY out of state vehicle that's stopped for 5 over the limit or has tint or loud music is searched? Even if there's no scent of weed or open containers! Valid license and registration were presented also! And once again on the scenario you responded to NO citation was issued. I was to my cabin for vacation just like 90% of the other cars traveling I96 in the middle of July!

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

No, I'm talking about using profiling to find an excuse to pull over a random dude, and then finding a way to search that car because that dude just might have some pot on him being ridiculous. I'm not talking about following up on actual leads or real information.

Rite! Thats totally differant! And it pains me that some of the LEOs on this board just won't admit that some officers DO racial profile instead of trying to justify these BS searches! I remember New Jersey State Troops catchin a lot of flack for Profiling some years back! I guess they did nothing wrong either......

[hounddog]

So EVERY out of state vehicle that's stopped for 5 over the limit or has tint or loud music is searched? Even if there's no scent of weed or open containers! Valid license and registration were presented also! And once again on the scenario you responded to NO citation was issued. I was to my cabin for vacation just like 90% of the other cars traveling I96 in the middle of July!

Of course not, so, that tells me that something else was going on.  So, either you acted suspicious at the time of the stop, or, you were the target of a drug interdiction stop.  FYI, we stopped probably twice as many white people as we did black people in DETROIT when we did interdiction task force.  I obviously have no numbers to confirm this but I know for a fact we stopped a lot more whites.

When I was still working I stopped dozens of cars every month, not all of them got tickets, not all were searched, many were searched and got tickets, many were searched and got no ticket. 

Searches and receiving a ticket are not dependent upon one another. 

Rite! Thats totally differant! And it pains me that some of the LEOs on this board just won't admit that some officers DO racial profile instead of trying to justify these BS searches! I remember New Jersey State Troops catchin a lot of flack for Profiling some years back! I guess they did nothing wrong either......

Pretty sure I did admit that there might be some out there. 

What has New Jersey policy on traffic enforcement to do with Michigan policies on traffic enforcement?

I will tell you: New Jersey and their openly racist profiling consisted of one factor: race.
Because of this, Michigan set up a profiling package which is to be followed when drug teams perform interdiction task force activities.

Can I promise everyone follows this system as they are supposed to? Of course not.   
Are most officers honest and try to do what is right?  Of course, and, as pointed out; the advent of cameras furthers this.
Do cameras fix everything?  Of course not.

[hounddog]

There are some drug laws which are nonsensical, and some which are justified.

Asking for a complete rundown of which are which is a little much, but it's enough to say that when entire states have legalized their use and others consider them felonies, it's hard to find the sense in them.

[sigh]

[bing_oh]

Of course you can't let people run from the police. But you guys are diverting the debate into an area where you think you can win, ignoring that we aren't talking about actual known drug dealers; we're talking about a dude who's innocent of everything but having tint or loud music (etc.) getting searched for no good moral reason.

You don't know the officer's reasoning, do you? Maybe there is a perfectly "good moral reason" that you happen to not be privy to, instead of the assumed "driving while black" that you're all raging about.

[bing_oh]

I'm following your lead, which specifically stated that people get pulled over because they it certain criteria. In that way, no it's not entirely random. It's essentially playing the odds though.

What Bing countered with was a scenario in which a suspect had already been identified is pulled over, which is an entirely different situation.

Ok, I counter with another that lacks any pre-identification...again, recent stop in my city.

Vehicle is pulled over for a right turn on red violation (obviously, a minor traffic violation). Officer who stops the vehicle calls the K9, who does a walk-around and alerts to the vehicle. Subjects are found to have personal use heroin as well as large amounts of cash and burglary tools. It's found later that morning that they burglarized three local businesses and the crimes had not yet been discovered at the time of the stop...two guys in jail and the cases essentially solved before the crimes are ever reported. The MO also fits at least a half dozen other B&E's in the area in the last couple months. The reason for the initial K9 walk-around? Nothing more than a veteran officer's experience and intuition knowing that their behavior simply wasn't right.

[Soup DeVille]

Ok, I counter with another that lacks any pre-identification...again, recent stop in my city.

Vehicle is pulled over for a right turn on red violation (obviously, a minor traffic violation). Officer who stops the vehicle calls the K9, who does a walk-around and alerts to the vehicle. Subjects are found to have personal use heroin as well as large amounts of cash and burglary tools. It's found later that morning that they burglarized three local businesses and the crimes had not yet been discovered at the time of the stop. The reason for the initial K9 walk-around? Nothing more than a veteran officer's experience and intuition knowing that their behavior simply wasn't right.

I won't argue that such tactics dint occasionally lead to genuine, necessary arrests. What I will say is that a heck of a lot of them don't, and a lot of people are detained and inconvenienced needlessly while such fishing takes place.

[NomisR]

So EVERY out of state vehicle that's stopped for 5 over the limit or has tint or loud music is searched? Even if there's no scent of weed or open containers! Valid license and registration were presented also! And once again on the scenario you responded to NO citation was issued. I was to my cabin for vacation just like 90% of the other cars traveling I96 in the middle of July!

See, you need to stop driving cars like the F Body or G8 or a Monte Carlo, or an Impala and stuff like that.. same with a 300 or an Escalade especially if any of those with dark tinted windows with chrome wheels.  Now, if you  get something like a Toyota Camry, especially if they're a newer model, stock with no tint, chances of you getting pulled over will be significantly lower.  Oh yeah, stay away from Nissan too, especially Altimas because those are pretty "black" cars too that'll get you profiled. 

[bing_oh]

I won't argue that such tactics dint occasionally lead to genuine, necessary arrests. What I will say is that a heck of a lot of them don't, and a lot of people are detained and inconvenienced needlessly while such fishing takes place.

The vast majority of officers aren't going to "needlessly inconvenience" someone with a vehicle search unless they have some reason to think they're going to find something. Believe me when I say we have plenty of other things to do than tear apart a vehicle for no reason. If I'm digging through the old McDonald's wrappers in your backseat in -20 degrees and icy snow along a busy road, it's not for fun or to screw with you.

[Soup DeVille]

The vast majority of officers aren't going to "needlessly inconvenience" someone with a vehicle search unless they have some reason to think they're going to find something. Believe me when I say we have plenty of other things to do than tear apart a vehicle for no reason. If I'm digging through the old McDonald's wrappers in your backseat in -20 degrees and icy snow along a busy road, it's not for fun or to screw with you.

And I'm willing to bet such stops are less common when it's 20 below too.

[Soup DeVille]

See, you need to stop driving cars like the F Body or G8 or a Monte Carlo, or an Impala and stuff like that.. same with a 300 or an Escalade especially if any of those with dark tinted windows with chrome wheels.  Now, if you  get something like a Toyota Camry, especially if they're a newer model, stock with no tint, chances of you getting pulled over will be significantly lower.  Oh yeah, stay away from Nissan too, especially Altimas because those are pretty "black" cars too that'll get you profiled. 

Actually, I have no problem with the random searching and beating of Escalade drivers.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

See, you need to stop driving cars like the F Body or G8 or a Monte Carlo, or an Impala and stuff like that.. same with a 300 or an Escalade especially if any of those with dark tinted windows with chrome wheels.  Now, if you  get something like a Toyota Camry, especially if they're a newer model, stock with no tint, chances of you getting pulled over will be significantly lower.  Oh yeah, stay away from Nissan too, especially Altimas because those are pretty "black" cars too that'll get you profiled. 

[dazzleman]

See, you need to stop driving cars like the F Body or G8 or a Monte Carlo, or an Impala and stuff like that.. same with a 300 or an Escalade especially if any of those with dark tinted windows with chrome wheels.  Now, if you  get something like a Toyota Camry, especially if they're a newer model, stock with no tint, chances of you getting pulled over will be significantly lower.  Oh yeah, stay away from Nissan too, especially Altimas because those are pretty "black" cars too that'll get you profiled. 

My brother drives an Altima.

[CALL_911]

He must be black

[dazzleman]

He must be black

He is.  I'm adopted.  The rest of my family is black.

All kidding aside, I do have a black cousin.  He weighs 500 pounds.

[CALL_911]

He must bench a shitload dude

[dazzleman]

He must bench a shitload dude

I have no idea.  I suspect not.  Fat <=> strong.

[MX793]

He is.  I'm adopted.  The rest of my family is black.

All kidding aside, I do have a black cousin.  He weighs 500 pounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAvQp-Uk5I