WRX vs. Police Charger

[Soup DeVille]

Ehh, you're still paying a premium for an ARB over an old school Detroit locker: and lots of guys are still running them. ARBs are  a relative rarity outside of hardcore rock crawlers. Not to say that there aren't more than there were, but anyways: I did assume automatic lockers when Rupert mentioned them.

[Mustangfan2003]

There is a 4WD Tahoe police package but it is not pursuit rated, which makes it ill suited to highway patrol duty.  Although I thought I recently read that GM had come out with a pursuit rated 4WD Tahoe model.

NYS Police, who have been running Tahoes for quite a while, seem to largely be buying new Tahoes to replace their aging CVs (as well as older Tahoes) instead of purchasing any of the new sedans (Taurus, Caprice, or Charger).  I think they may have a few Chargers in the fleet, but I haven't seen any Tauruses, Explorers, or Caprices in NYSP service that I can recall.

Mississippi Troopers are using Tahoes and the Charger.  The only advantage I see with going with the Tahoe is that it's more durable and the repair cost would be cheaper.  Also, it has a lot more cargo space. 

[Rupert]

Oh: manual lockers are another story. Most lockers aren't.

Oh, yeah, of course. No way would I put auto-lockers on a winter rig. Or any rig that was meant to be driven long distance, for that matter.

[MrH]

I'm still missing why you guys think LSDs are so awful in the snow.  I guess it makes it more likely to break both rear wheels free mid corner instead of just the inside one, but it's not the doomsday mixture you guys are making it out to seem.  I'll take an LSD on a RWD car instead of an open diff in the snow any day.

[Soup DeVille]

I'm still missing why you guys think LSDs are so awful in the snow.  I guess it makes it more likely to break both rear wheels free mid corner instead of just the inside one, but it's not the doomsday mixture you guys are making it out to seem.  I'll take an LSD on a RWD car instead of an open diff in the snow any day.

That's it. when you hit the gas, you can break both wheels loose. Solution? Get off the gas.

[MrH]

That's it. when you hit the gas, you can break both wheels loose. Solution? Get off the gas.

But that's how you dorifto. Solution: dont floor it mid corner, or just be ready to catch it. I'm failing to see the problem here.

[Soup DeVille]

But that's how you dorifto. Solution: dont floor it mid corner, or just be ready to catch it. I'm failing to see the problem here.

Yes, it is. But we're too responsible here for that, aren't we? To be fair, you don't have to floor it. The wagon breaks loose with very mild nudges.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Oh: manual lockers are another story. Most lockers aren't.

I put an automatic locker in Sonoma. It was a beast in the snow, and real easy to drive. I gave it to my cousin who just got his license (in Michgan). No problems. Last time I checked, he has put maybe 50K on the thing.

[MX793]

I'm still missing why you guys think LSDs are so awful in the snow.  I guess it makes it more likely to break both rear wheels free mid corner instead of just the inside one, but it's not the doomsday mixture you guys are making it out to seem.  I'll take an LSD on a RWD car instead of an open diff in the snow any day.

It's not just driving around corners.  I drive on a number of roads with steep crowns (or that are slightly off camber).  Break both tires loose, even in a straight line, and the ass end side-steps for the curb or ditch.  It's especially bad when trying to make it up a hill.

[bing_oh]

I wonder if you can get a Charger police package with awd?  After seeing some of the cars that highway patrols are using it seems like a lot of northern states are going with the Taurus or the Explorer.  If I recall the Tahoe is only offered in 2wd.

Dodge isn't coming out with a awd police package for the Charger until the middle of this year...so probably the 2015 model year. Realistically, while awd is better that rwd in snow, it isn't 4wd...they're still not impressive in heavy snow. I can easily go places in my department's 4wd Expedition that our awd Explorer can't.

Oh, and there is now a pursuit-rated 4wd Tahoe...it just came out this year, as I understand. Such vehicles are expensive, though. Equipping an entire fleet with them isn't economically viable for most departments. The price difference between a Tahoe and a Charger is huge when you're talking about a limited police budget.

[SVT_Power]

Dodge isn't coming out with a awd police package for the Charger until the middle of this year...so probably the 2015 model year. Realistically, while awd is better that rwd in snow, it isn't 4wd...they're still not impressive in heavy snow. I can easily go places in my department's 4wd Expedition that our awd Explorer can't.

Oh, and there is now a pursuit-rated 4wd Tahoe...it just came out this year, as I understand. Such vehicles are expensive, though. Equipping an entire fleet with them isn't economically viable for most departments. The price difference between a Tahoe and a Charger is huge when you're talking about a limited police budget.

What makes 4WD so much better then AWD in snow?

I can't even think of what's available in 4WD anymore (outside of the pickup market)

[cawimmer430]

I have pretty good winter tires and the 1er still blows in the snow, especially when all my gear isn't in the rear (two to three suitcases filled with heavy light gear etc.). Even with all my gear in the back, I've gotten stuck in the snow a few times. It's annoying. 

[Mustangfan2003]

What makes 4WD so much better then AWD in snow?

I can't even think of what's available in 4WD anymore (outside of the pickup market)

Maybe I'm mistaken but on 4wd isn't the power shifted 50/50 when engaged?  I know on awd most of the power is either shifted to the front or to the rear. 

[Soup DeVille]

Maybe I'm mistaken but on 4wd isn't the power shifted 50/50 when engaged?  I know on awd most of the power is either shifted to the front or to the rear. 

Ehh there're all kinds of systems calling themselves either 4WD or AWD these days. Traditionally perhaps, 4WD was part-time and used a central two speed tansfer case, while AWD was full time with some sort of center differential.

But, that's not a hard and fast rule either. Both Range Rovers and Subarus have long used a full time system with an open center differential: but one calls that 4WD and one AWD.

I don't know the particulars of the system on the new Explorers, but I believe they're basically FWD until the front wheels slip, and then they transfer power through a wet clutch to the rears.

[Rupert]

The key is a center diff lock, IMO.

[BENZ BOY15]

Yes, it is. But we're too responsible here for that, aren't we? To be fair, you don't have to floor it. The wagon breaks loose with very mild nudges.

Sure seems like it'd be easy to do.

That plus all the ice/snow is why I declined the opportunity to drive wagon.

[Soup DeVille]

Sure seems like it'd be easy to do.

That plus all the ice/snow is why I declined the opportunity to drive wagon.

Well, the roads were fairly clear then, weren't they? Anyways, we could've found a nice empty parking lot for that if it was necessary.

[MX793]

Dodge isn't coming out with a awd police package for the Charger until the middle of this year...so probably the 2015 model year. Realistically, while awd is better that rwd in snow, it isn't 4wd...they're still not impressive in heavy snow. I can easily go places in my department's 4wd Expedition that our awd Explorer can't.

I assume you're talking about the latest Explorer model?  Are the two fitted with comparable tires?  Or is the Expedition fitted with A/T truck tires while the Explorer runs all season passenger car tires?

[bing_oh]

What makes 4WD so much better then AWD in snow?

I can't even think of what's available in 4WD anymore (outside of the pickup market)

Maybe I'm mistaken but on 4wd isn't the power shifted 50/50 when engaged?  I know on awd most of the power is either shifted to the front or to the rear.

Generally, 4wd is considered 50/50 power distribution, while awd is usually more like 80/20 (depending on the manufacturer). With computer traction control, the 80/20 isn't a hard and fast rule, though.

Besides a more even power distribution, most 4wd's also have a higher ground clearance, making them better for deep snow. Most 4wd's in LE are SUV's so, yes, they're built on a pickup chassis.

[bing_oh]

I assume you're talking about the latest Explorer model?  Are the two fitted with comparable tires?  Or is the Expedition fitted with A/T truck tires while the Explorer runs all season passenger car tires?

I am. And, no, I don't think they are...the Expedition is a pickup chassis with A/T tires, while I do believe that the Explorer has all seasons. Even with comparable tires, the Expedition has the ground clearance advantage that would hang up the Explorer in deep snow.

[MrH]

I am. And, no, I don't think they are...the Expedition is a pickup chassis with A/T tires, while I do believe that the Explorer has all seasons. Even with comparable tires, the Expedition has the ground clearance advantage that would hang up the Explorer in deep snow.

When is the snow so heavy around here that an Explorer would hang up ?

[bing_oh]

When is the snow so heavy around here that an Explorer would hang up ?

Guess you weren't out a few weeks ago during the little "arctic vortex." There were plenty of unplowed areas and drifted roads where you could have easily hung up an Explorer.

[MrH]

I was out during the worst of it.  Just blasted through everything in my Element with its inferior AWD system

If the front wheels detect slip, upwards of 50% of the power goes to the rear.  If both are slipping, it'll just stay at 50:50 split until it gets traction again.  Open differentials front and rear, but I'd only be screwed really if either the left or right completely lost traction and the other side didn't.  I'd have to try to find an area to even simulate that.  True 4WD would be better (the Tacoma I had was awesome), but there isn't much around here that my wimpy AWD system couldn't handle.

[Raza]

You would think they'd use Tahoes or something like that.

Where I grew up, most of the cops were in Tahoes or Yukons or whatever.  The neighboring town only really had one or two Cherokees that they pulled out for bad weather. 

But a big  to the WRX driver!

[BENZ BOY15]

Well, the roads were fairly clear then, weren't they? Anyways, we could've found a nice empty parking lot for that if it was necessary.

I don't recall that they were. They seemed a bit on the marginal side and while it probably would have been okay, the last thing that I needed at that time was to crash somebody else's car.

But I appreciate the offer.

[bing_oh]

I was out during the worst of it.  Just blasted through everything in my Element with its inferior AWD system

If the front wheels detect slip, upwards of 50% of the power goes to the rear.  If both are slipping, it'll just stay at 50:50 split until it gets traction again.  Open differentials front and rear, but I'd only be screwed really if either the left or right completely lost traction and the other side didn't.  I'd have to try to find an area to even simulate that.  True 4WD would be better (the Tacoma I had was awesome), but there isn't much around here that my wimpy AWD system couldn't handle.

Most people (with a little common sense) avoid unplowed areas where they think there's a chance of getting stuck. We don't really have that option in LE when it's bad out. When we have to get there, sometimes we have to go through heavy drifts and such to do it. AWD is generally good enough for poorly maintained roads in those kinds of conditions, but it can be a different story when you're talking about heavily drifted roads. I've been tasked with "drift busting" for ambulances before using the department 4WD...and even then, it's quite possible to get stuck. There have been instances where guys have gotten even the 4WD stuck in heavy snow and we had to get assistance from one of the big plow trucks. Not extremely common here in Ohio, but every few years we have a particularly nasty winter where even AWD isn't quite enough and the 4WD comes in handy.

[MX793]

It's not the drive system (AWD vs 4x4) so much as it's differences in ground clearance and tires.  An AWD vehicle with comparable ground clearance and tires will dig through snow as well as an old school 4x4.

[giant_mtb]

Most people (with a little common sense) avoid unplowed areas where they think there's a chance of getting stuck. We don't really have that option in LE when it's bad out. When we have to get there, sometimes we have to go through heavy drifts and such to do it. AWD is generally good enough for poorly maintained roads in those kinds of conditions, but it can be a different story when you're talking about heavily drifted roads. I've been tasked with "drift busting" for ambulances before using the department 4WD...and even then, it's quite possible to get stuck. There have been instances where guys have gotten even the 4WD stuck in heavy snow and we had to get assistance from one of the big plow trucks. Not extremely common here in Ohio, but every few years we have a particularly nasty winter where even AWD isn't quite enough and the 4WD comes in handy.

Me and a friend of mine used to go drift busting (we called it bank busting) in his old crappy Lumina sometimes before school in the morning.

[MX793]

I was out during the worst of it.  Just blasted through everything in my Element with its inferior AWD system

If the front wheels detect slip, upwards of 50% of the power goes to the rear.  If both are slipping, it'll just stay at 50:50 split until it gets traction again.  Open differentials front and rear, but I'd only be screwed really if either the left or right completely lost traction and the other side didn't.  I'd have to try to find an area to even simulate that.  True 4WD would be better (the Tacoma I had was awesome), but there isn't much around here that my wimpy AWD system couldn't handle.

A lot of part time 4x4s have open front and rear diff as well.

[MrH]

A lot of part time 4x4s have open front and rear diff as well.

True.  I guess I'm used to my old Tacoma and my dad's F150, which were both limited slip in the rear I believe.

If they have open diffs front and rear, there isn't really any difference between my rinky dink AWD and locking 4WD when it comes to traction in snow.