The Natural Order of the Automotive Universe Prevails Once Again

[MX793]

If Ford Sync continues to be as crappy as it is now and EcoBoost isn't putting up its mpg numbers, these new customers will leave it just as quickly as they came back. 

Just like any other engine, Ecoboost can put up the advertised numbers if you drive "correctly".  This has always been a problem with the advertised EPA numbers; they are hugely dependent on the driving style and environment in which the vehicle is operated.  A driver whose style results in mileage that is well below EPA estimates is going to get well below EPA estimates in pretty much any car they drive.

[ifcar]

Just like any other engine, Ecoboost can put up the advertised numbers if you drive "correctly".  This has always been a problem with the advertised EPA numbers; they are hugely dependent on the driving style and environment in which the vehicle is operated.  A driver whose style results in mileage that is well below EPA estimates is going to get well below EPA estimates in pretty much any car they drive.

Some cars are a lot more sensitive than others, though, and the Ecoboost 4-cylinders seem to be among them.

[FoMoJo]

Some cars are a lot more sensitive than others, though, and the Ecoboost 4-cylinders seem to be among them.

An engine that provides for a greater range of economy vs. power can be described as 'sensitive' or 'flexible' or 'versatile' depending on the requirement of the moment.  Small displacement with variable boost and direct injection, imo, is the best approach to getting the most flexibility from an engine.  As well, limitations or even selective modes can easily be provided.

[GoCougs]

A telling statement from the article...Toyota claimed the 2005 Camry's main CPU had error detecting and correcting (EDAC) RAM. It didn't.

Again, I don't buy it (or the relevance) without more info. Controls systems are a complicated thing, even for simple things.

Even if we take the one-sided article as true (code is "bad"), it's not proof - it was only an analysis (review); until one can prove a thing said thing doesn't exist, and no one has proven it (yet).

[GoCougs]

Some cars are a lot more sensitive than others, though, and the Ecoboost 4-cylinders seem to be among them.

And EB V6 too; lots of lawsuits.

Turbo engines game the EPA test to a greater degree - there's simply more goodies to control to game the test.

Looks like the Japanese are staying away from turbos, and IMO it will pay bid dividends in customer equity as turbo-powered cars hit get on with age. How palatable is $3,000 turbo replacement on an 8-year-old F-150?

[FoMoJo]

Again, I don't buy it (or the relevance) without more info. Controls systems are a complicated thing, even for simple things.

Even if we take the one-sided article as true (code is "bad"), it's not proof - it was only an analysis (review); until one can prove a thing said thing doesn't exist, and no one has proven it (yet).

They only need to prove that it can happen...and they did.

[2o6]

Those turbo engines are great if you stay out of the boost. The tiny engines generally need to use boost more, so it's harder to do.

[FoMoJo]

And EB V6 too; lots of lawsuits.

Turbo engines game the EPA test to a greater degree - there's simply more goodies to control to game the test.

Looks like the Japanese are staying away from turbos, and IMO it will pay bid dividends in customer equity as turbo-powered cars hit get on with age. How palatable is $3,000 turbo replacement on an 8-year-old F-150?

Turbos have been around and operating reliably for a long time.  As for 'the Japanese' staying away from them, that's really not true...with the exception of FOG cars.

[2o6]

The only Japanese company that is staying away from it is probably Toyota....but arguably their new line of four-cylinders and V6es are relatively new. I wouldn't be suprised come next model cycle they jump on that bandwagon.

Nissan/Renault had FI out the ass.

[GoCougs]

They only need to prove that it can happen...and they did.

Well, it wasn't done so in that post. Do you have another ink? I've never seen any proof and have only seen my aforementioned impossible scenario to recreate anything remotely close to a dangerous failure.

[GoCougs]

Turbos have been around and operating reliably for a long time.  As for 'the Japanese' staying away from them, that's really not true...with the exception of FOG cars.

Yes, and not really; IMO it's always been a given that a turbo will never last as long as the engine itself. Twin turbo replacement in an older GT-R or S4 is one thing; in a run-of-the-mill older F-150? Not so much.

Toyota and Honda do not currently offer any F/I motors. Honda had one in the first gen RDX but for the 2nd get they dumped it for their corporate 3.5L V6 (and it got faster, better MPG, and far less NVH). Nissan has only one F/I motor, and that's in the GT-R. Subaru just dumped the turbo in the Legacy in favor of a 6 cyl and previously dumped the turbo for the 2010 redesign of the Outback for the same reason. Mazda only intermittently has turbos - the Mazdaspeed3 is not available for 2014.

[FoMoJo]

Well, it wasn't done so in that post. Do you have another ink? I've never seen any proof and have only seen my aforementioned impossible scenario to recreate anything remotely close to a dangerous failure.

I expect you'd have to contact Barr Group if you wanted an in depth explanation of the deficiencies. 

A couple of info links if you're interested...http://embeddedgurus.com/barr-code/...http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/BarrSlides_FINAL_SCRUBBED.pdf

[FoMoJo]

Yes, and not really; IMO it's always been a given that a turbo will never last as long as the engine itself. Twin turbo replacement in an older GT-R or S4 is one thing; in a run-of-the-mill older F-150? Not so much.

Toyota and Honda do not currently offer any F/I motors. Honda had one in the first gen RDX but for the 2nd get they dumped it for their corporate 3.5L V6 (and it got faster, better MPG, and far less NVH). Nissan has only one F/I motor, and that's in the GT-R. Subaru just dumped the turbo in the Legacy in favor of a 6 cyl and previously dumped the turbo for the 2010 redesign of the Outback for the same reason. Mazda only intermittently has turbos - the Mazdaspeed3 is not available for 2014.

Oh, did Honda cancel these?

I can understand Toyota not venturing into any new territory...and, unfortunately Subaru as well...since they were taken over by Toyota.  Mazda has taken a different route and it may work for a while.

[GoCougs]

I expect you'd have to contact Barr Group if you wanted an in depth explanation of the deficiencies. 

A couple of info links if you're interested...http://embeddedgurus.com/barr-code/...http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/BarrSlides_FINAL_SCRUBBED.pdf

Even if I were wholly ignorant of the tech (quite the opposite - I do control system design and programming for a (partial) living) I'd discount that presentation for all the red stop signs, exclamation points, italics, highlighting, bolding, underlining, hyperbole and last and certainly not least, the insecure last slide.

If they were truly embedded control systems experts it would be easy to validate their claims ("One corruption event can cause task death and open throttle"). That's a fundamental premise for analysis and theory. They did not do so (or at least it's not in the presentation) and thus their analysis by definition means nothing; they couldn't prove it = it doesn't exist.

[GoCougs]

Oh, did Honda cancel these?

I can understand Toyota not venturing into any new territory...and, unfortunately Subaru as well...since they were taken over by Toyota.  Mazda has taken a different route and it may work for a while.

Well, those aren't being produced yet (article says available in 3 years). But I'll believe it when I see it. Automakers always have mules and ideas floating around...

[MX793]

Yes, and not really; IMO it's always been a given that a turbo will never last as long as the engine itself. Twin turbo replacement in an older GT-R or S4 is one thing; in a run-of-the-mill older F-150? Not so much.

Toyota and Honda do not currently offer any F/I motors. Honda had one in the first gen RDX but for the 2nd get they dumped it for their corporate 3.5L V6 (and it got faster, better MPG, and far less NVH). Nissan has only one F/I motor, and that's in the GT-R. Subaru just dumped the turbo in the Legacy in favor of a 6 cyl and previously dumped the turbo for the 2010 redesign of the Outback for the same reason. Mazda only intermittently has turbos - the Mazdaspeed3 is not available for 2014.

Nissan has used turbos extensively for 30 years or more, but their US offerings have in general been NA.  Currently the GT-R and Juke are the only F/I cars for sale in the US.

And the Legacy has been offered with both turbo 4 and H6 for the past couple of generations.  They didn't replace the turbo with the H6, they simply discontinued the Turbo model for the US market.  I suspect their transition to the new FA/FB motor was part of the reasoning behind that.  The turbo was dropped from the Outback earlier because nobody bought them.  Most people either went for the base model or the top of the line.  The XT models were sort of an odd, in-between trim that just weren't very popular.  Japanese market Legacies are running the 2.0T from the latest WRX.  I wouldn't be surprised if that motor made an appearance in the US market Legacy in the near future.  The Forester is still offering the turbo motor (now the new 2.0T instead of the old 2.5) as their top motor.

I expect a new, turbocharged Mazdaspeed3 to make an appearance in the future too.  The Mazda3 was just fully redesigned for '14.  The Mazdaspeed versions don't always come out the first year of a new generation model.  There were 3 years between when they developed the MkI Mazda3 and when its Mazdaspeed version came out.  The MkII Mazda3 wasn't a full-up redesign, so they were able to have the Mazdaspeed version available the same model year.  Having been cut loose from Ford, and having spent big development dollars to bring several fully redesigned or all new models to market in the past 2 years (CX-5, Mazda6, Mazda3), they likely didn't have the resources to have the Speed3 queued up for simultaneous release with the regular car.

[GoCougs]

Displacement taxes drive turbo use outside the US (including Japan). It's not done for technical reasons.

The point is the last ~10 years Subaru has notably decreased use of turbo engines.

[FoMoJo]

Even if I were wholly ignorant of the tech (quite the opposite - I do control system design and programming for a (partial) living) I'd discount that presentation for all the red stop signs, exclamation points, italics, highlighting, bolding, underlining, hyperbole and last and certainly not least, the insecure last slide.

If they were truly embedded control systems experts it would be easy to validate their claims ("One corruption event can cause task death and open throttle"). That's a fundamental premise for analysis and theory. They did not do so (or at least it's not in the presentation) and thus their analysis by definition means nothing; they couldn't prove it = it doesn't exist.

Really?  You reject it because to don't like the format?  Obviously, a set of slides that were aimed at a layman's understanding of electronic control operation and potential hazards.  As for the last page, it's pretty obvious that it was Toyota's expert who was insecure.

Next step is the 800 page formal written expert report...but I don't think you're really interested.

[Onslaught]

Turbos have been around and operating reliably for a long time.  As for 'the Japanese' staying away from them, that's really not true...with the exception of FOG cars.

Turbo's almost always fail before just about anything else however. I do wonder 8-10 years from now what all these normal cars with turbo's are going to be like with lots of miles on them.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Turbo's almost always fail before just about anything else however. I do wonder 8-10 years from now what all these normal cars with turbo's are going to be like with lots of miles on them.

What are OEMs doing about it? Can they do turbo timers or add an auxiliary oil pump to run after the engine is shut down?

[GoCougs]

Really?  You reject it because to don't like the format?  Obviously, a set of slides that were aimed at a layman's understanding of electronic control operation and potential hazards.  As for the last page, it's pretty obvious that it was Toyota's expert who was insecure.

Next step is the 800 page formal written expert report...but I don't think you're really interested.

Yes; the format underlies intentl and it's most certainly not for layman.

I'm interested in single page that says, "here's the theory, here's the cause and here's how we replicated it."

[FoMoJo]

Turbo's almost always fail before just about anything else however. I do wonder 8-10 years from now what all these normal cars with turbo's are going to be like with lots of miles on them.

The turbos are small and they are water-cooled...built for durability.

[FoMoJo]

What are OEMs doing about it? Can they do turbo timers or add an auxiliary oil pump to run after the engine is shut down?

Garrett G15...water-cooled bearings.  No need for a 'cool down'.

[FoMoJo]

Yes; the format underlies intentl and it's most certainly not for layman.

I'm interested in single page that says, "here's the theory, here's the cause and here's how we replicated it."

No need to replicate it if it is proven than it can happen...which it was.

[MX793]

Garrett G15...water-cooled bearings.  No need for a 'cool down'.

Problem is heat after the car is shut off.  When running, the water pump (or oil pump) will circulate cooling fluid through the turbo.  When the car is shut off, unless there is some electric pump that runs for a time after shutdown, the coolant supply stops and the bearings cook for a bit as they are left to rely on convection to ambient air to cool down.

[GoCougs]

No need to replicate it if it is proven than it can happen...which it was.

[FoMoJo]

Give up?

[FoMoJo]

Problem is heat after the car is shut off.  When running, the water pump (or oil pump) will circulate cooling fluid through the turbo.  When the car is shut off, unless there is some electric pump that runs for a time after shutdown, the coolant supply stops and the bearings cook for a bit as they are left to rely on convection to ambient air to cool down.

According to articles, having water jackets surrounding the bearings will eliminate the need for cool off.  There is oil as well as coolant circulation.

[MX793]

According to articles, having water jackets surrounding the bearings will eliminate the need for cool off.  There is oil as well as coolant circulation.

How does the water circulate if the water pump is not moving?

[FoMoJo]

How does the water circulate if the water pump is not moving?

Just going by what info is available...

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0910phr_ford_ecoboost_six_cylinder/photo_10.html

Of course the water doesn't circulate if the pump is not moving.