Oil Change Antics

[FoMoJo]

If things are working correctly, no, not really. If the clutch packs (or anything else) wear to any meaningful degree the transmission has effectively already failed and a fluid change isn't going to help.

Sure logically speaking nothing lasts forever but AT fluid and radiator coolant, etc., can be designed (along with the AT and radiator, etc.) to last the life of the car (200,000 miles and 15 years?).

In automatic transmissions there is a slight degree of intentional slippage when engaged.  This causes a slight degree of wear.  The slight degree of wear of the abrasive materials creates a fine powder which, gradually, accumulates in the fluid.  If you plan on keeping a vehicle for a long period of time, 7+ years, it's advisable to change the transmission fluid every 35 to 50k miles.

[2o6]

When have you heard of a properly designed modern transmission failing because bad fluid causing excess wear?

[FoMoJo]

When have you heard of a properly designed modern transmission failing because bad fluid causing excess wear?

There are several articles, many legitimate, which explain this.

[Byteme]

I just want to know what exactly "lifetime" means.

If it breaks they guarantee to sell you another one.   

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I just want to know what exactly "lifetime" means.

The life of the transmission, however long that may be.

[Byteme]

Well, when the fluid gets dirty and breaks down enough, so does the rest of the transmission, and the lifetime is over.

Ideally, this happens just after the warranty expires.

Manufacturers care about being able to claim the lowest possible maintenance costs for a period of time, typically 2-3 years.  it's a selling point.  You buy a new car and during the warranty period it's "gas and go". 

Years ago VW came out with a sealed for life claim n their ZF transmissions.  the manufacturer, ZF, countered with a statement that the fluid should be changed every 60,000 miles.

Lubricants break down, metal and non-metal parts wear from normal usage; that's why there is a filter in the automatic transmission.  Eventiually that filterwilllose effectiveness.

[GoCougs]

In automatic transmissions there is a slight degree of intentional slippage when engaged.  This causes a slight degree of wear.  The slight degree of wear of the abrasive materials creates a fine powder which, gradually, accumulates in the fluid.  If you plan on keeping a vehicle for a long period of time, 7+ years, it's advisable to change the transmission fluid every 35 to 50k miles.

Actually, there is no slippage when "engaged." The only slippage occurs when shifting. In days of old, slushie AT shifting occurred courtesy of bands (linear clutch), clutch packs, and hydro dynamic pressures - stuff that wore quickly and reacted slowly. You either got quick shifts (= PITA hard shifts, but a lot less wear) or slow shifts (= soft shifts, but much less wear). Since most cars were tuned for the later, slushie transmissions needed frequent service and replacing.

Nowadays many/most/(all?) modern transmission are absent these weaknesses. Firstly, they can make extremely quick shifts (= a lot less if almost no wear on clutch packs) yet are extremely smooth courtesy of electronic control and high bandwidth electromechanical elements. Second, dog gears (= metal) are used instead of bands (bands were a huge weakness). Without all these slipping elements needed to make a smooth shift, plus better designed cooling systems (virtually impossible to overheat a modern engine or transmission), thus was born the maintenance free slushie AT.

[GoCougs]

So you disagree with the premise that oil's break down over time due to heat and pressure?


And to think, everyone at all these big billion dollar companies have had it wrong for all these years.

As explained, the design of the modern slushie AT has changed drastically if not almost entirely to fit the "lifetime fill" requirement.

These same billion $$$ companies have dumped billions $$$ into vastly more reliable/robust engines and transmissions (lol - look at the differences in the block between a Ford 302 and Coyote) and then all of sudden they're going to upend these billions $$$ by specifying too long service intervals?

C'mon, man. No one needs to know anything about transmissions or engines - simple logic tells us your premise is broken.

[GoCougs]

When have you heard of a properly designed modern transmission failing because bad fluid causing excess wear?

Pretty much. "Bad fluid" is a symptom not a cause really. By the time the fluid is "bad" it's either been overheated, contaminated with water, or something is failing (clutches coming apart).

[Soup DeVille]

Pretty much. "Bad fluid" is a symptom not a cause really. By the time the fluid is "bad" it's either been overheated, contaminated with water, or something is failing (clutches coming apart).

All good reasons to change it.

[Byteme]

As explained, the design of the modern slushie AT has changed drastically if not almost entirely to fit the "lifetime fill" requirement.

These same billion $$$ companies have dumped billions $$$ into vastly more reliable/robust engines and transmissions (lol - look at the differences in the block between a Ford 302 and Coyote) and then all of sudden they're going to upend these billions $$$ by specifying too long service intervals?

C'mon, man. No one needs to know anything about transmissions or engines - simple logic tells us your premise is broken.

So the same companies that will, for example, engineer the last penny out of an ignition switch and then ignore an ongoing problem for 12 years are suddenly paragons of engineering virtue when it comes to transmissions?   

[GoCougs]

So the same companies that will, for example, engineer the last penny out of an ignition switch and then ignore an ongoing problem for 12 years are suddenly paragons of engineering virtue when it comes to transmissions?   

Actually, I recommend reading the expose in this month's C&D. Of the noted deaths 67% were either unbelted or DUI - they may have been problematic but they weren't causing deaths.

But yes, they are paragons. Just look at the physical differences between the LT1 vs. SBC or ZF 8 sp vs. Turbo 350, and the vastly improved reliability, durability and performance.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

My reference to the billion dollar companies was the oil industry. Companies like Mobil, not General motors.

Oil breaks down, it's a fact. I would never trust a "lifetime fill" on anything. Automatic, manual or differential. It's bogus, I'm surprised anyone would even debate it.

[GoCougs]

All good reasons to change it.

Too late by then. But don't let those things happen to begin with.

[GoCougs]

My reference to the billion dollar companies was the oil industry. Companies like Mobil, not General motors.

Oil breaks down, it's a fact. I would never trust a "lifetime fill" on anything. Automatic, manual or differential. It's bogus, I'm surprised anyone would even debate it.

Ah, I see.

So how does oil "break down" in a transmission or diff?

[Soup DeVille]

Too late by then. But don't let those things happen to begin with.

Naww, these things fail on a long slope, not instantly in most cases.

[sparkplug]

As much as they charge to change the tranny fluid, it just makes sense to change the transmission. Eventually we'll be changing the engine instead of the engine oil. Hey NASCAR changes engines every race.

[Byteme]

Ah, I see.

So how does oil "break down" in a transmission or diff?

Become unfit for use might be a better way to express it.  As I stated in an earlier post, lubricants accumulate bits of metal and other substances from the normal workings of the mechanism they are lubricating.  Differentials, transmissions (both manual and automatic are vented to the atmosphere) thus allowing water vapor to enter.  IIRC lubricants do oxidize,slowly,but they do.  Heat breaks down additives.  No lubricant lasts forever. 

This is why when I buy a used car the first thing I do is change all the fluids; yes, even blinker fluid.      It's cheap insurance.

[GoCougs]

Become unfit for use might be a better way to express it.  As I stated in an earlier post, lubricants accumulate bits of metal and other substances from the normal workings of the mechanism they are lubricating.  Differentials, transmissions (both manual and automatic are vented to the atmosphere) thus allowing water vapor to enter.  IIRC lubricants do oxidize,slowly,but they do.  Heat breaks down additives.  No lubricant lasts forever. 

This is why when I buy a used car the first thing I do is change all the fluids; yes, even blinker fluid.      It's cheap insurance.

Many many industrial drive trains (gear reducers, transmission, etc.) are lifetime fill and permanently sealed; and they experience WAY more operations hours than the average retail vehicle transmission.

The need for changing tranny fluid was the clutches and bands wearing and that is mostly all gone now. A properly designed gear interface has no metal or shavings or w/e.

[FoMoJo]

Actually, there is no slippage when "engaged." The only slippage occurs when shifting. In days of old, slushie AT shifting occurred courtesy of bands (linear clutch), clutch packs, and hydro dynamic pressures - stuff that wore quickly and reacted slowly. You either got quick shifts (= PITA hard shifts, but a lot less wear) or slow shifts (= soft shifts, but much less wear). Since most cars were tuned for the later, slushie transmissions needed frequent service and replacing.
.
Nowadays many/most/(all?) modern transmission are absent these weaknesses. Firstly, they can make extremely quick shifts (= a lot less if almost no wear on clutch packs) yet are extremely smooth courtesy of electronic control and high bandwidth electromechanical elements. Second, dog gears (= metal) are used instead of bands (bands were a huge weakness). Without all these slipping elements needed to make a smooth shift, plus better designed cooling systems (virtually impossible to overheat a modern engine or transmission), thus was born the maintenance free slushie AT.

I meant to say "while engaging".  Transmission fluid will acquire contaminants over time and usage, as well as breaking down.  Those who are wise and want to extend the life of their transmission will change the fluid periodically.  This is an accepted reality and to deny it happens makes no sense.  It's only arguable in the sense that there is less contamination and breakdown of fluid than in previous decades.

[GoCougs]

I meant to say "while engaging".  Transmission fluid will acquire contaminants over time and usage, as well as breaking down.  Those who are wise and want to extend the life of their transmission will change the fluid periodically.  This is an accepted reality and to deny it happens makes no sense.  It's only arguable in the sense that there is less contamination and breakdown of fluid than in previous decades.

So again, forgetting the technical details, where's the logical premise? Automakers spent many years and many billions $$$ in making drive trains vastly more robust and reliable vs. days of old, and times past have proven consumers don't really care much about maintenance costs (Honda and Toyota rose to power in the '80s and '90s all the while requiring far more expensive maintenance what with 60k mile timing belt changes) and as mentioned it is common to find lifetime lubricated industrial drive trains. So now those same automakers are gonna upend that huge investment by lying about maintenance intervals???

Consumers who change fluid at intervals shorter than specified by the automaker are only spending money they don't need to. Their components will not last longer nor function better. That doesn't sound like PoM to me.

[Byteme]

Many many industrial drive trains (gear reducers, transmission, etc.) are lifetime fill and permanently sealed; and they experience WAY more operations hours than the average retail vehicle transmission.

The need for changing tranny fluid was the clutches and bands wearing and that is mostly all gone now. A properly designed gear interface has no metal or shavings or w/e.

maybe those many industrial drive trains are more simple in that they work at constant or near constant speeds and in more or less the same ambient temps day in and day out.  And they are probably a bit more robust than an AT in a car.

And we would all agree that gears and other components are much more precisely designed and manufactured than in the past, but still you will have some wear being picked up by the lubricant. Why else have a filter?

So again, forgetting the technical details, where's the logical premise? Automakers spent many years and many billions $$$ in making drive trains vastly more robust and reliable vs. days of old, and times past have proven consumers don't really care much about maintenance costs (Honda and Toyota rose to power in the '80s and '90s all the while requiring far more expensive maintenance what with 60k mile timing belt changes) and as mentioned it is common to find lifetime lubricated industrial drive trains. So now those same automakers are gonna upend that huge investment by lying about maintenance intervals???

Consumers who change fluid at intervals shorter than specified by the automaker are only spending money they don't need to. Their components will not last longer nor function better. That doesn't sound like PoM to me.

Then why are manufacturers actively advertising that their vehicles either require very long maintenance intervals or come with paid maintenance for XD number of years?  Don't kid yourself maintenance intervals are a selling point.

Let me know how that industrial drive train works on your daily commute.   

[Soup DeVille]

Many many industrial drive trains (gear reducers, transmission, etc.) are lifetime fill and permanently sealed; and they experience WAY more operations hours than the average retail vehicle transmission.

The need for changing tranny fluid was the clutches and bands wearing and that is mostly all gone now. A properly designed gear interface has no metal or shavings or w/e.

They're also way heavier in terms of weight per torque transmitted, operate in more controlled environments, at more constant speeds, and are more expensive in general.

Go and spec a Dayton or Rexroth gearbox that's rated for 300 lb ft, or 6000 RPM and it'll weigh a couple of tons and cost forty grand.

I mean, I see your point, but it's not entirely the same thing.

[12,000 RPM]

Why is it a scam? Lifetime fluids result in lower costs for the consumer and better overall packaging and design of whatever (tranny, t-case, diff, etc.).

Problem is "lifetime" = end of warranty. The transmissions end up having problems or outright dying well before the end of the useful life of the car.

[GoCougs]

Problem is "lifetime" = end of warranty. The transmissions end up having problems or outright dying well before the end of the useful life of the car.

False on both.

[GoCougs]

They're also way heavier in terms of weight per torque transmitted, operate in more controlled environments, at more constant speeds, and are more expensive in general.

Go and spec a Dayton or Rexroth gearbox that's rated for 300 lb ft, or 6000 RPM and it'll weigh a couple of tons and cost forty grand.

I mean, I see your point, but it's not entirely the same thing.

All true, yet...

Yeah, it's the same thing (= engineering).

[GoCougs]

maybe those many industrial drive trains are more simple in that they work at constant or near constant speeds and in more or less the same ambient temps day in and day out.  And they are probably a bit more robust than an AT in a car.

And we would all agree that gears and other components are much more precisely designed and manufactured than in the past, but still you will have some wear being picked up by the lubricant. Why else have a filter?

Then why are manufacturers actively advertising that their vehicles either require very long maintenance intervals or come with paid maintenance for XD number of years?  Don't kid yourself maintenance intervals are a selling point.

Let me know how that industrial drive train works on your daily commute.   

No, they operate at all sorts of speeds and loads, and I don't think I've ever seen a filter on a lifetime fill components - it costs a lot to design a filter system plus tolerances and bearing fit and the like can be very high which be nigh impossible to get right in the field. But as to filters, the G37 7AT does not have a transmission filter and I suspect neither do the other lifetime fill ATs (and of course neither do other typical lifetime fill components such as differential and transfer case).

Actually, the "free" maintenance is typically on near luxury/luxury vehicles with super high lease take rates - it's just another reason to make juicy lease deals that much more attractive for the automaker. But that's a bit of red herring - most all these cars of the class have extended/lifetime service components and 10,000+ mile oil change intervals. There ain't a whole lotta maintaining going on over the course of a lease (and be sure to bet the automaker only follows the factory specs on intervals).

[Byteme]

No, they operate at all sorts of speeds and loads, and I don't think I've ever seen a filter on a lifetime fill components - it costs a lot to design a filter system plus tolerances and bearing fit and the like can be very high which be nigh impossible to get right in the field. But as to filters, the G37 7AT does not have a transmission filter and I suspect neither do the other lifetime fill ATs (and of course neither do other typical lifetime fill components such as differential and transfer case).

Actually, the "free" maintenance is typically on near luxury/luxury vehicles with super high lease take rates - it's just another reason to make juicy lease deals that much more attractive for the automaker. But that's a bit of red herring - most all these cars of the class have extended/lifetime service components and 10,000+ mile oil change intervals. There ain't a whole lotta maintaining going on over the course of a lease (and be sure to bet the automaker only follows the factory specs on intervals).

Mercedes, for one has filters.   I suspect many more do.  A filter still performs a useful function.

Regarding free maintenance.  From Edmunds  (nuff said):

General Motors brands (Buick, Chevrolet and GMC) began to offer free maintenance for two years or 24,000 miles on 2014 and newer vehicles. The coverage includes up to four oil changes, tire rotation and 27-point inspection as dictated by the owner's manual and oil life monitoring system.

Cadillac gets GM's best coverage. The Premium Care Maintenance program debuted on the Cadillac CTS Coupe and is now standard on all new models. This program covers the car for four years or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first. Cadillac doesn't specify how many services will be covered, but a safe assumption would be that owners will get at least one scheduled maintenance per year.

Kia's free vehicle maintenance only applies to its luxury-oriented Kia Cadenza and K900 sedans. Kia coverage lasts for 36 months or 37,500 miles. This adds up to five free service visits.

Lincoln and Toyota both have free maintenance programs that started out as promotional incentives, but were subsequently extended. Lincoln's Complimentary Maintenance program offers two years or 25,000 miles of coverage.

Toyota and Scion's coverage, two years or 25,000 miles, is notable because it includes roadside assistance. That's something Toyota had not previously offered, even though it typically comes standard with many automakers' new-car warranties.

Volvo's coverage has seen the most fluctuation since 2008 when it offered one free service, at 7,500 miles. For 2009, it extended the free maintenance for up to 36,000 miles. In 2010, it extended coverage to five years or 60,000 miles. In 2011 it changed to five years or 50,000 miles. This amounts to six scheduled maintenance visits and also covers the replacement of wear items such as brake pads and wipers. In 2013, Volvo reduced the coverage to three years and did not include coverage of wearable items.

"The complimentary offer was used as an incentive to customers," says Jawanza Keita, a Volvo spokesperson. "As with all new vehicle incentives, Volvo continuously monitors customer response and adjusts our offers accordingly."

Comprehensive Programs
Hyundai, along with BMW and its Mini brand, are the only automakers with all-inclusive programs. They not only cover scheduled maintenance, but also include replacement of items that wear out, such as brake pads, brake rotors and wiper-blade inserts. The biggest difference among the programs is in the duration of the coverage. BMW was the first to market with its Ultimate Service, which lasts four years or 50,000 miles. BMW owners can also choose to extend their coverage to six years or 100,000 miles for an additional fee. This service extension can also be applied to BMW's certified pre-owned vehicles.

Mini's Free Maintenance plan is comprehensive but has a shorter duration. Its coverage lasts three years or 36,000 miles.

Hyundai's "At Your Service" is an anomaly. Its three-year/36,000-mile free maintenance plan only applies to the automaker's flagship luxury model, the Hyundai Equus. At Your Service is also notable because an owner never has to set foot in the service department. Hyundai provides valet pickup and drop-off for all warranty, maintenance and service repairs to the Equus.

[GoCougs]

I did more checking - lifetime fill transmissions do not have a filter, which is what one would expect (which includes the G37).

There ain't nothing free - one is paying for that maintenance because the cost is baked into the lease and the design of extended/lifetime interval components.

[Byteme]

There ain't nothing free - one is paying for that maintenance because the cost is baked into the lease and the design of extended/lifetime interval components.

No shit?   Reality in this case is whatever the buyer perceives it to be.