Car Chat

[GoCougs]

In a hybid F1 engine there is a generator sitting between the hot and cold sides of the turbo that stores excess energy recovered from the exhaust in the battery pack rather than the turbo having a tradition bypass and blow off valve  .  The generator maximizes energy harvested out of the exhaust and minimizes the energy needed for the compressor which is a direct improvement on thermal efficiency.

Nope.

[r0tor]

For those who aren't cougs
https://youtu.be/kOhmgpkiIfg

[GoCougs]

For those who aren't cougs
https://youtu.be/kOhmgpkiIfg

Did you watch the first ~3 minutes? He is (accurately) describing an increase in mechanical efficiency - recovering energy from the exhaust to be dumped into the battery pack to be used later for mechanical work (= power electric motors, including for anti-lag (for performance), which he did not mention).

[r0tor]

Just stop

[cawimmer430]

Higher TE means less fuel for every horsepower produced.  Fuel economy as far as fuel consumed per distance driven (or vice versa) depends on a host of other factors like aerodynamics, weight, gearing.  Motorcycles, for example, get much better fuel mileage than cars but their engines are no more efficient, thermally.  But, generally speaking, a more efficient engine (unit power per unit fuel) will result in a more efficient vehicle (unit distance per unit fuel).

You explain difficult things with such ease so idiots like me can understand. Thanks! 

Max theoretical for the Otto cycle is 40-45% (due to pumping losses (moving air through the engine), etc.). Add in practical considerations (i.e., how the spark ICE operates in the real world - valve train losses (compressing valve springs), bearing drag, etc.) and it drops to the max we know today (up to ~30%).

[r0tor]

PHEVs seem to be getting a substantial bump in electric range.  Some new models are now 30+ miles.  They are really starting to get my attention.  I could see my wife in one and basically never need gas running all her errands and going shopping.

Previously for the extra cost and extra 500lbs you didn't exactly have enough electric range to do much of anything... seems like the value prospect is really changing.

[Laconian]

Still gotta take it in for fluid changes.

[r0tor]

Yea, but that's probably like 1x per year

[Galaxy]

Did you watch the first ~3 minutes? He is (accurately) describing an increase in mechanical efficiency - recovering energy from the exhaust to be dumped into the battery pack to be used later for mechanical work (= power electric motors, including for anti-lag (for performance), which he did not mention).

A combustion engine converts ~ 1/3 of the energy into usable power, 1/3 gets dumped into the coolant system, and 1/3 goes out the exhaust, reducing the loses of the energy lost via exhaust would be part of the thermal equation.

[AutobahnSHO]

I totally want a PHEV (for my 3rd car LOL). Work and back is about 40miles. Would be nice to not burn as much gasoline, but still have 'unlimited' range.

[Soup DeVille]

A combustion engine converts ~ 1/3 of the energy into usable power, 1/3 gets dumped into the coolant system, and 1/3 goes out the exhaust, reducing the loses of the energy lost via exhaust would be part of the thermal equation.

Overall, yes. But as he said, that is no longer an entirely otto cycle engine.

[r0tor]

Overall, yes. But as he said, that is no longer an entirely otto cycle engine.

Pretty sure that why "hybid" is used to describe a hybrid F1 engine and why the "Otto cycle" is irrelevant and why cougs is dead wrong that energy harvesting from the exhaust isnt improving thermal efficiency - which is what the original question asked.

[Soup DeVille]

Pretty sure that why "hybid" is used to describe a hybrid F1 engine and why the "Otto cycle" is irrelevant and why cougs is dead wrong that energy harvesting from the exhaust isnt improving thermal efficiency - which is what the original question asked.

Actually, I was referring to the discussion before that.

In the F1 setup, they're using energy storage and mechanically putting it into a device then in turn using that to increase the thermodynamic efficiency. One could make both of your positions reasonably.

[Submariner]

A combustion engine converts ~ 1/3 of the energy into usable power, 1/3 gets dumped into the coolant system, and 1/3 goes out the exhaust, reducing the loses of the energy lost via exhaust would be part of the thermal equation.

A turbo setup that only powers a dynamo to charge batteries?

[r0tor]

A turbo setup that only powers a dynamo to charge batteries?

The hot side powers a battery which then powers the cold side of the turbo plus other electrical loads.  That's called energy recovery and is the basis for improving thermal efficiencies

A standard turbo recovers energy in the same way, however it is limited in only recovering as much energy as the cold side wheel needs (at which point the waste fate opens and dumps the exhaust energy)

[CaminoRacer]

Actually, I was referring to the discussion before that.

In the F1 setup, they're using energy storage and mechanically putting it into a device then in turn using that to increase the thermodynamic efficiency. One could make both of your positions reasonably.

Yes, it's getting into semantics. Not worth arguing about.

[Galaxy]

Overall, yes. But as he said, that is no longer an entirely otto cycle engine.

I would agree that one can push the argument to far.

Apropos: My furnace has an energy efficiency on paper of 105%, since they are adding the energy of the condensation of water in the exhaust. I asked the guy who installed it how much natural gas I can expect to harvest per month, and he looked at me like I am an idiot. I did start to question his competency that he did not immediately understand my point about the ridicules numbers. The actual efficiency is going to be more like ~ 98% in terms of turning gas into heat. 

[CaminoRacer]

Some dumb local city councilman's platform includes this:
"I am against the (#20isPlentySLC) effort because I believe that it will increase pollution by forcing cars to run in 2nd gear since the expected shift to 3rd, generally, is at 22MPH."

I haven't driven a single car made after 1990 that would hold 2nd gear at 20 mph steady cruising. Most cars will shift into ~4th as soon as you stop accelerating.

[RomanChariot]

Some dumb local city councilman's platform includes this:
"I am against the (#20isPlentySLC) effort because I believe that it will increase pollution by forcing cars to run in 2nd gear since the expected shift to 3rd, generally, is at 22MPH."

I haven't driven a single car made after 1990 that would hold 2nd gear at 20 mph steady cruising. Most cars will shift into ~4th as soon as you stop accelerating.

His statement was dumb and misinformation almost always hurts your cause. If he really wanted to fight against the push for a 20mph speed limit he should use Sweet Streets own words against them.

Sweet Streets is calling on the Salt Lake City Council and Transportation Division to enact a 20 mph limit on streets that include places where people live, work, play, shop or attend school or worship, with timely emphasis on routes connecting with schools and neighborhood byways.

That pretty much includes every street in Salt Lake City except for the freeways. They are going to have to reach for a more realistic goal if they have any hope of success.

[Speed_Racer]

Some dumb local city councilman's platform includes this:
"I am against the (#20isPlentySLC) effort because I believe that it will increase pollution by forcing cars to run in 2nd gear since the expected shift to 3rd, generally, is at 22MPH."

I haven't driven a single car made after 1990 that would hold 2nd gear at 20 mph steady cruising. Most cars will shift into ~4th as soon as you stop accelerating.

Who are these people

[CaminoRacer]

His statement was dumb and misinformation almost always hurts your cause. If he really wanted to fight against the push for a 20mph speed limit he should use Sweet Streets own words against them.

That pretty much includes every street in Salt Lake City except for the freeways. They are going to have to reach for a more realistic goal if they have any hope of success.

Yeah, that's a legit argument and I wouldn't want 20 mph everywhere. Some select areas should probably be 20, but not the whole city. No need to freak out about 2nd gear.

[cawimmer430]

1984 Ford Telstar 2.0 TX-5 Liftback! My parents owned one of these when I was a kid and I remember how at the time I thought it was such a cool-looking car. Ours was a light shade of metallic brown and was LHD. I remember it also had the digital speedometer (seen towards the end of this video) which to my knowledge was limited to the TX-5 model. This is a pretty obscure car which was built for the Australian market on the Mazda 626 platform and probably made its way to a handful of surrounding nations.

My parents owned this car in the Philippines. When I was a kid I remember seeing these (and the sedan version) all over the place there. This (and perhaps Taiwan) were the only markets in which you could get a LHD Ford Telstar!

I never got to drive the car since my parents sold it before I turned 16, but I remember once sitting on my dad's lap behind the wheel and he allowed me to steer it - and I could not since it didn't have power steering and I wasn't a strong kid! Ah, memories! 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyRk9b_VHwQ

[AutobahnSHO]

Some dumb local city councilman's platform includes this:
"I am against the (#20isPlentySLC) effort because I believe that it will increase pollution by forcing cars to run in 2nd gear since the expected shift to 3rd, generally, is at 22MPH."

I haven't driven a single car made after 1990 that would hold 2nd gear at 20 mph steady cruising. Most cars will shift into ~4th as soon as you stop accelerating.

UGH Almost my entire hometown is 20mph. A few main streets are 30mph. (Ones with stop lights). It is SO SLOW to get across town when the main road is 20mph, but it's still a pretty small town so doesn't take forever.

The BIGGEST issue is that 20mph is AUTOMATICALLY A SCHOOL ZONE in Wyoming so you get a ticket almost anywhere even if there's no school it's stupid expensive.

When we visit home it's just so very very painful. And when you go driving anywhere else it feels like light speed, TOOOOO FAAAAST LOL.

[cawimmer430]

One of my neighbors got this old Volkswagen T3 van, ex-Munich firefighter vehicle. I see him working on the engine almost everyday.

[Soup DeVille]

A Wasserboxer?

This is its natural habitat.

[CALL_911]

Did you guys know they still sell the FJ Cruiser new in Saudi Arabia?

[Rich]

I did not.  Bananas

[cawimmer430]

A Wasserboxer?

This is its natural habitat.

If I remember correctly some of the early engines for these were air-cooled, were they not? Too lazy to check Wikipedia...

[cawimmer430]

OMG, I so need this in my life! 1:18th scale Mercedes-Benz 450SEL 6.9 W116. 



https://www.norev.com/de/archiv/8544-mercedes-benz-450-sel-69-1976-green-metallic.html

[Soup DeVille]

If I remember correctly some of the early engines for these were air-cooled, were they not? Too lazy to check Wikipedia...

They were; but that one clearly has the grille for the front radiator.

Most of the wasserboxers in the US have long ago been converted to type-4 aircooled engines. I don't know if that's an option in Germany or not.