Car Chat

[r0tor]

We should just start a bogus EV car company with this premise and roll with it... I mean it's not that hard to show a bunch of tenders and claim it will be available in a few years

[Laconian]

Didn't GM propose a vehicle with an interchangeable chassis a few years ago?

Yeah, the Autonomy.

[GoCougs]

Standardized battery pack is akin to standardized engines. Firstly, left to their own devices, automakers would never do it for competitive reasons. Secondly, technically it would be a huge task - not only is it (currently) a structural element of the chassis (thus it affects anything from exterior design to safety), a "battery pack" is (currently) associated with proprietary stuff like monitoring sensors, on-board charger, and charging algorithms.

The value and environmental advantages of EVs are dubious, and standardization will only make things worse. Let the automakers try and figure things. It's been 120+ years of trying, and EVs are still not close to equivalency to ICE-powered vehicles, so there's no magic pill here. It will be a long, expensive (and questionable IMO) slog to see how far EVs can be taken.

[JWC]

Yeah, the Autonomy.

Yep, after your post I could find it. I thought it was a pretty good idea.

[Laconian]

Standardized battery pack is akin to standardized engines. Firstly, left to their own devices, automakers would never do it for competitive reasons. Secondly, technically it would be a huge task - not only is it (currently) a structural element of the chassis (thus it affects anything from exterior design to safety), a "battery pack" is (currently) associated with proprietary stuff like monitoring sensors, on-board charger, and charging algorithms.

The value and environmental advantages of EVs are dubious, and standardization will only make things worse. Let the automakers try and figure things. It's been 120+ years of trying, and EVs are still not close to equivalency to ICE-powered vehicles, so there's no magic pill here. It will be a long, expensive (and questionable IMO) slog to see how far EVs can be taken.

Regulation could create a standard form factor. Or if you have a situation where there is one wildly successful incumbent and a lot of other companies fighting for scraps, the other companies could band together and form a consortium.

[Soup DeVille]

Regulation could create a standard form factor. Or if you have a situation where there is one wildly successful incumbent and a lot of other companies fighting for scraps, the other companies could band together and form a consortium.

The second is what usually happens.

[Laconian]

The second is what usually happens.

It happens all the time in the PC industry.

[GoCougs]

Regulation could create a standard form factor. Or if you have a situation where there is one wildly successful incumbent and a lot of other companies fighting for scraps, the other companies could band together and form a consortium.

Well, you know me, I think regulation is always a bad idea!

Just imagine if ICEs were standardized across auto makers - it would have been a catastrophe WRT innovation, both in the ICEs themselves and vehicles in general (since akin to a battery pack, an ICE is integral to both the chassis and operation).

If automakers want to form some sort of consortium, sure, by all means, if it's voluntary. Any industry has some precedent for voluntary participation is groups and technology sharing, and the auto industry is no different (SAE, ISO, CAN bus, etc.).

I think the ICE is the analog here - extremely difficult to standardize across automaker, and would be ginormous detrimental if attempted.

[r0tor]

Standardized battery pack is akin to standardized engines. Firstly, left to their own devices, automakers would never do it for competitive reasons. Secondly, technically it would be a huge task - not only is it (currently) a structural element of the chassis (thus it affects anything from exterior design to safety), a "battery pack" is (currently) associated with proprietary stuff like monitoring sensors, on-board charger, and charging algorithms.

The value and environmental advantages of EVs are dubious, and standardization will only make things worse. Let the automakers try and figure things. It's been 120+ years of trying, and EVs are still not close to equivalency to ICE-powered vehicles, so there's no magic pill here. It will be a long, expensive (and questionable IMO) slog to see how far EVs can be taken.

No battery packs are not stressed members in the chassis.  They all basically have the same sensors, CTs, PT's, and temp.

[GoCougs]

No battery packs are not stressed members in the chassis.  They all basically have the same sensors, CTs, PT's, and temp.

The battery pack is a structural element as I had stated, which means it has both major mass and geometry (and thus by definition, stress), and as such is a primary design factor for the chassis - stiffness, crash protection, NVH, handling, ID, etc.

Any sort of sensor needs the appropriate measurement system = proper algos, filtering, update rates, resolution, etc., which will vary between pack designs.

Automakers need to first work on getting EVs as reliable, cost effective, useful (i.e., range and charging networks) and profitable as ICE vehicles before even thinking about any sort of meta universal battery pack design exercise (and that is exactly what is happening).

[Laconian]

NVH? Really? There ought to be far fewer dynamic concerns with something like a _battery pack_ versus anything you'd have in a ICE drivetrain.

The pack becomes yet another constraint for the engineers to design around. Not any harder than e.g. producing high performance variant of a car with 2 extra cylinders.

[GoCougs]

NVH? Really? There ought to be far fewer dynamic concerns with something like a _battery pack_ versus anything you'd have in a ICE drivetrain.

The pack becomes yet another constraint for the engineers to design around. Not any harder than e.g. producing high performance variant of a car with 2 extra cylinders.

Absolutely. A 1000-1500 lb thing that size bolted into a vehicle chassis? Hell, yes, that will be its own thing, with all sorts of static and dynamic behavior, that will affect chassis NVH and all sorts of other things.

It will never happen if battery packs remain remotely close to their current size and weight.

[Laconian]

Absolutely. A 1000-1500 lb thing that size bolted into a vehicle chassis? Hell, yes, that will be its own thing, with all sorts of static and dynamic behavior, that will affect chassis NVH and all sorts of other things.

Those are issues with all battery packs though, standardized or not?

[MX793]

Those are issues with all battery packs though, standardized or not?

Anything with mass and a non-infinite stiffness is going to be a potential consideration for NVH.

[Laconian]

No doubt, my point was those same issues exist regardless of whether the battery pack was produced in house or sourced from a third party using a common spec.

And there will certainly be standardization within companies, so it's not like each pack will be a bespoke unit made for the unique needs of the car. Nope, you'll reach for the GM shared battery module #2921.

But I do suppose supporting swappable batteries would come at a cost to the surrounding structure, which was mentioned earlier.

[Laconian]

(BTW I am out of my league in this area so thank you for BSing)

[Soup DeVille]

Those are issues with all battery packs though, standardized or not?

yes, but a permanently installed pack can be bolted down tight, or isolated on rubber bushings, or what have you: Something that slides in and out, that gets a little trickier.

[CaminoRacer]

The Bolt's battery pack can be swapped in 2 hours. Wouldn't that be plenty quick enough for the usage you guys are talking about? Because you're just talking about swapping packs every once in a while, not something like swapping batteries instead of recharging on a roadtrip.

[GoCougs]

Those are issues with all battery packs though, standardized or not?

But sometimes (maybe all the time) the best answer is to change the design of the structural element (battery pack) to meet whatever criteria.

I do some CAD/FEA design, but am no means an expert but know as much that legit mechanical engineering of structures is quite sophisticated - from a bridge to jetliner fuselage to vehicle chassis - because nothing is perfect, and sometimes "perfect" or nearly perfect (as in perfectly stiff) is a really bad idea.

If battery packs get to the size of an ICE, that's a bit more viable, because as we've seen automakers can (sorta) standardize ICEs across its own platforms (i.e., the GM LS V8 was used in near-countless vehicles, but even then, no LS was a 100% direct swap across platforms - truck vs. sedan vs. Camaro vs. Corvette).

From what I can tell, even Tesla doesn't standardize battery packs across its platforms.

[Laconian]

I saw a 2022 BMW M3 in a dark forest green. Truly one of the ugliest cars I've seen in recent memory. My reaction was initially visceral and somewhat confused: "what IS that thing?" At the point I was able to take in the details (and lord, is it overdone) and I realized it was a BMW. Hilarity. The grilles are bad enough, but the black plastic orthodontia that hang out of every oriface just makes things so much worse.

[Morris Minor]

I saw a 2022 BMW M3 in a dark forest green. Truly one of the ugliest cars I've seen in recent memory. My reaction was initially visceral and somewhat confused: "what IS that thing?" At the point I was able to take in the details (and lord, is it overdone) and I realized it was a BMW. Hilarity. The grilles are bad enough, but the black plastic orthodontia that hang out of every oriface just makes things so much worse.

Nobody wants to be seen in something that looks like a badger's ball sack. Somebody at BMW isn't thinking.

[cawimmer430]

Introducing the world's most complex air-conditioning controls ever! 

This is embarrassing but I have honestly no idea how to properly use the A/C in my dad's '89 500SL. The blower speed is easy, the winter symbol activates the cooling but then there's the red and blue button between the top most air vents which also play a role in the system. This car is usually driven top down for short journeys only, so there's no need for the A/C system to be used.

One thing I've noticed (and maybe I am doing something wrong), the cooling factor is a joke. At max blower speed and at the coldest setting the air is not really cold and man, this system is LOUD. The air whines when blown out and the A/C system is just loud - even at a fan setting of 1. Ah, late 1980s luxury. 

[MX793]

If it doesn't blow cold (and you're using the system correctly), the refrigerant may need a recharge.  Given the car's age, it's probably using a CFC refrigerant that has since been banned, so recharge will probably be $$$.  Conversion is usually possible, but also $$$.

[Soup DeVille]

Do Euro refrigerants mirror the US?
In '89 in the US it would have been R-12, which is apparently like napalm for the ozone layer, and is worth its weight in gold today. But, converting over to R134a is relatively easy- except that's going to be banned soon too, but will be available for older systems for a while.

[r0tor]

The EU is way ahead of the US with refrigerants.  R134a is already on its way out there.

[cawimmer430]

If it doesn't blow cold (and you're using the system correctly), the refrigerant may need a recharge.  Given the car's age, it's probably using a CFC refrigerant that has since been banned, so recharge will probably be $$$.  Conversion is usually possible, but also $$$.

Just went for a drive with my dad and the 500SL and showed him the cooling issue. He knows how to operate the A/C and also wondered why the air is not being cooled. Luckily we have our "personal mechanic" who also owns an R129 300SL and handles the basic maintenance on my dad's 500SL. It's probably a refrigerant issue because IIRC this car needs some kind of liquid for the A/C to cool the air.

Do Euro refrigerants mirror the US?
In '89 in the US it would have been R-12, which is apparently like napalm for the ozone layer, and is worth its weight in gold today. But, converting over to R134a is relatively easy- except that's going to be banned soon too, but will be available for older systems for a while.

Knowing the EU, they banned this stuff ages ago.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgq-vBA-THg


Link: https://eia-international.org/news/we-expose-illegal-refrigerant-trade-in-europe-the-biggest-eco-crime-no-ones-heard-of/

[cawimmer430]

Today's rip-off fuel bill. 40.9 liters for 69.10 Euros.

For my American friends, that's 10.8 US gallons for $81.60 (1.689 Euros per liter = $7.56 per US gallon).

Absolutely f*cking insane and a total rip off. 3/4 of the fuel price here is comprised of four f*cking taxes. FOUR GOD DAMN TAXES. 

[CaminoRacer]

Time to get an EV!

[Laconian]

Germany's gotta pay for its amazing glassy 500kph roads somehow.

If you've driven to Belgium and experienced the wonder of their roads, just keep in mind that our roads in the USA are like five times worse.

[SJ_GTI]

Time to get an EV!