Char's E92 Build thread

[MrH]

Again, if it's as simple as changing the shape of the intake molding, why would OEMs leave out all of these efficiency gains? 

[AutobahnSHO]

The OEM boxes are pretty engineered. CAI seem way simpler/easier. So (unlike aftermarket exhaust or headers, which are probably where the OEM is balancing "cheaper" with performance), I think the OEM is likely better.

[12,000 RPM]

Or you just google image searched his dyno and found it on an E90 forum.

I tried that. No results. But in my perpetual car search I've seen dynos for that car many times. Nothing else has that powerband... except maybe a bolt on TSX

And yea I would look at intake manifold pressures and temperatures rather than a dyno

Intake manifold swaps are for more than peak power. I picked up about 20 whp swapping a prelude mani onto my 1st accord. Throttle response was also greatly improved.

I hope char picked that manifold up for cheap tough. The new kit is like $1000

[Char]

Again, if it's as simple as changing the shape of the intake molding, why would OEMs leave out all of these efficiency gains?

Because they aren't looking for maximum power.
There was a thread on one of my forums where a member worked at a company that makes parts for different manufacturers. HE claimed that they had a muliti million dollar project that they were working on, but it was ultimately scrapped because of cost. The manufacturer wanted to lower the manufacturing cost a half of a 1 cent per bolt. Needless to say he wasn't very happy about it (I believe the manufacture was either Hyundai or GM) \\

Also, big LOL on putting any worth in 1 lb/ft differences on a chassis dyno.  What do you think that thing is actually calibrated to?  Why do different dyno brands give such a HUGE difference in results, but you trust one dyno from one run to another down to the lb-ft?  There's a smoothing factor on the whole dyno too, which just throws more inaccuracies into the equation.

Nothing about that intake comparison is remotely statistically significant.

If you're looking for peak values, it's only 1lb-ft difference at peak, but depending on the intake (modified stock box being green on that dyno) some make less area under the curve than others. The AFE was the clear winner of all the intakes - more peak power, and consistent power gains (we ran all intakes multiple times) The Injen intake (red) was the worst, even though it had the best mid range, it lost power ever single run after the first due to rising intake temperatures.

I've heard that argument again and again, but my gut feeling is that at any decent speed, air is moving around in the engine bay way too quickly for it to get hotter in one area than in another.

Yes and no - There was a test on another car (E46) and found that when the car was stopped and idling, the intake temps shot up. This could cause a slight loss of power when your staging at the track, due to IAT sensor reading these higher temps. Intakes that gather their air from the front of the car and/or the bottom absolutely show lower air tempetures compared to gathering air in the engine bay - even while the car was moving.

I tried that. No results. But in my perpetual car search I've seen dynos for that car many times. Nothing else has that powerband... except maybe a bolt on TSX

And yea I would look at intake manifold pressures and temperatures rather than a dyno

Intake manifold swaps are for more than peak power. I picked up about 20 whp swapping a prelude mani onto my 1st accord. Throttle response was also greatly improved.

I hope char picked that manifold up for cheap tough. The new kit is like $1000

You couldn't have searched the images -  I purposely changed the hosting site to make it more difficult to find.

[12,000 RPM]

I figured you would have scrambled its tracks. Again though it's pretty obviously an N52 power band.... all the Japanese NA 6s have rounder torque curves and DOHC VTEC motors almost always have either a VTEC spike or two humps for each cam profile. E90 330i torque rating is like 225lb-ft from 1800-5000 or something like that.

[MrH]

Because they aren't looking for maximum power.
There was a thread on one of my forums where a member worked at a company that makes parts for different manufacturers. HE claimed that they had a muliti million dollar project that they were working on, but it was ultimately scrapped because of cost. The manufacturer wanted to lower the manufacturing cost a half of a 1 cent per bolt. Needless to say he wasn't very happy about it (I believe the manufacture was either Hyundai or GM)

I work for a big suspension supplier.  I used to do the vast majority of the business cases for $1b/year interior supplier.  I understand these things.

If you're looking for peak values, it's only 1lb-ft difference at peak, but depending on the intake (modified stock box being green on that dyno) some make less area under the curve than others. The AFE was the clear winner of all the intakes - more peak power, and consistent power gains (we ran all intakes multiple times) The Injen intake (red) was the worst, even though it had the best mid range, it lost power ever single run after the first due to rising intake temperatures.

You've missed the point entirely.  What's the resolution of the chassis dyno being used?  Has someone done a gage R&R on the measuring equipment?  Are the readings repeatable?  Even if the measuring process turned out to be repeatable, is the vehicle capable of producing the exact same result over and over?

That information isn't close to being statistically significant.  I work in the industry and we have to do these kinds of studies on a regular basis, and we have a hell of a time getting our equipment and processes aligned to produce meaningful data.  And we have loads of engineers, equipment supplier support, annual calibrations, etc.  And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?

[AutobahnSHO]

  And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?

Joe just has to print out a number (graph) higher than the last one.

[Char]

I work for a big suspension supplier.  I used to do the vast majority of the business cases for $1b/year interior supplier.  I understand these things.

You've missed the point entirely.  What's the resolution of the chassis dyno being used?  Has someone done a gage R&R on the measuring equipment?  Are the readings repeatable?  Even if the measuring process turned out to be repeatable, is the vehicle capable of producing the exact same result over and over?

That information isn't close to being statistically significant.  I work in the industry and we have to do these kinds of studies on a regular basis, and we have a hell of a time getting our equipment and processes aligned to produce meaningful data.  And we have loads of engineers, equipment supplier support, annual calibrations, etc.  And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?

Yes. I'm not looking for "accuracy" though, I'm looking for precision - how often the dyno will measure the same result over time.  The dyno figures I posted have been replicated on another dyno across town.

[Char]

I figured you would have scrambled its tracks. Again though it's pretty obviously an N52 power band.... all the Japanese NA 6s have rounder torque curves and DOHC VTEC motors almost always have either a VTEC spike or two humps for each cam profile. E90 330i torque rating is like 225lb-ft from 1800-5000 or something like that.

Could have been a J30 from an Accord

[hotrodalex]

1 lb/ft gains are useless IRL.

[Char]

1 lb/ft gains are useless IRL.

Who is arguing that?

[SVT666]

I wouldn't have a beef if they called them "massive flow intake". They might allow more air through, for better efficiency, but it is NOT colder air than the OEM.

They are warm air intakes.

And no, air from the fender is not from the engine bay. At least all the fenders I've seen..

Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords did a CAI comparison test a few years ago and measured incoming air temp for each one, and depending on the design and where the CAI took the air from, air temperature most certainly does improve.

[SVT666]

The OEM boxes are pretty engineered. CAI seem way simpler/easier. So (unlike aftermarket exhaust or headers, which are probably where the OEM is balancing "cheaper" with performance), I think the OEM is likely better.

No.  They design it the intake air box to be quiet.

[AutobahnSHO]

No.  They design it the intake air box to be quiet.

Ok. That I can totally understand.

Why do the vast majority take air from the fender instead of engine bay?

[AutobahnSHO]

Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords did a CAI comparison test a few years ago and measured incoming air temp for each one, and depending on the design and where the CAI took the air from, air temperature most certainly does improve.

Improve from what?

[Char]

Ok. That I can totally understand.

Why do the vast majority take air from the fender instead of engine bay?

None of my cars did. Grills or behind the headlight, only the aftermarket intakes take it from the fender area. Hydrolock is a concern.

[SVT666]

Improve from what?

From stock.

[12,000 RPM]

Ok. That I can totally understand.

Why do the vast majority take air from the fender instead of engine bay?

Most cars, at best, pull air from just in front of the radiator. That's at best, and again is to prevent hydrolock.

[SVT666]

None of my cars did. Grills or behind the headlight, only the aftermarket intakes take it from the fender area. Hydrolock is a concern.

You're wrong. Most air boxes take air from the fender. This is the snorkel from the airbox of a 1996 Mustang GT.  It draws air from inside the fender.

[MrH]

Yes. I'm not looking for "accuracy" though, I'm looking for precision - how often the dyno will measure the same result over time.  The dyno figures I posted have been replicated on another dyno across town.

  Yes, I know that.

And another data point on another dyno does not make it valid.  You're outta your league man.  Stick to trollin forums instead

[MrH]

You're wrong. Most air boxes take air from the fender. This is the snorkel from the airbox of a 1996 Mustang GT.  It draws air from inside the fender.

[SVT666]

The OEM boxes are pretty engineered. CAI seem way simpler/easier. So (unlike aftermarket exhaust or headers, which are probably where the OEM is balancing "cheaper" with performance), I think the OEM is likely better.

Stock vs WMS Intake

[SVT666]

[hotrodalex]

Who is arguing that?

So you spent how much just to get slightly lower intake temps when staging at a track?

[Char]

So you spent how much just to get slightly lower intake temps when staging at a track?

$150 for 4/whp-tq. I'm happy about it.

  Yes, I know that.

And another data point on another dyno does not make it valid.  You're outta your league man.  Stick to trollin forums instead

No you didn't, which is why I had to correct you. Who are you again?

[hotrodalex]

$150

Plus all that dyno time.

[AutobahnSHO]

LOL IF the dyno is accurate/precise, 4whp-tq could be gained because got gas somewhere else or it's a few degrees warmer/cooler or the tires were inflated a few psi different etc...

On this one I agree with Cougs- leaving it strapped to the dyno and making the changes then immediately run it again is the most accurate you'd get. Anything under 5-10hp is probably EDIT: could be margin of error.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

What a great community.

[Char]

LOL IF the dyno is accurate/precise, 4whp-tq could be gained because got gas somewhere else or it's a few degrees warmer/cooler or the tires were inflated a few psi different etc...

On this one I agree with Cougs- leaving it strapped to the dyno and making the changes then immediately run it again is the most accurate you'd get. Anything under 5-10hp is probably EDIT: could be margin of error.

Car wasn't removed for testing. Go on, tell me more about how you have never used a dyno.

[GoCougs]

You've missed the point entirely.  What's the resolution of the chassis dyno being used?  Has someone done a gage R&R on the measuring equipment?  Are the readings repeatable?  Even if the measuring process turned out to be repeatable, is the vehicle capable of producing the exact same result over and over?

That information isn't close to being statistically significant.  I work in the industry and we have to do these kinds of studies on a regular basis, and we have a hell of a time getting our equipment and processes aligned to produce meaningful data.  And we have loads of engineers, equipment supplier support, annual calibrations, etc.  And you think Joe Schmoe with a dyno at his shop can produce results that accurate?

Also let's not forget accuracy of a validated measurement system is measured in % of full scale; for example 3% full scale of 1,000 lb-ft so if measuring 200 lb-ft peak that is 200 lb-ft +/- 30 lb-ft (note I'm making these numbers up but it's gonna be something along those lines).

Chassis dynos can be okay for big measurements or a quick succession of relative measurements during a tuning session (as in messing around with the jets in a carb or ignition timing or w/e) whereby variation (such as atmo conditions, tie down tension, tire pressure, diff oil temp, etc., are minimized by leaving the car on the dyno) but even then precision is highly unlikely to pick up anything less than 5-10 hp.