Habitual Drunk Drivers

[bing_oh]

I limit myself to one beer with my meal if I'm on the road.  I really don't think that amount would make any difference to the majority of people.

My limit is two. I know for a fact that won't get me even within spitting distance of .08, but I personally feel it's irresponsible for a driver to have any level of impairment.

[Soup DeVille]

Would I be "out of my element" if I agreed with him?

But you don't.

That's pure crap. It's exactly what 100% of drunk drivers are thinking.

SOME people might be able to drink "a little" and be "okay" "sometimes"- how much do you want the guy in the lane next to you to have drunk before driving??? There are a billion variables, and people are particularly good at making bad decisions.

My limit is two. I know for a fact that won't get me even within spitting distance of .08, but I personally feel it's irresponsible for a driver to have any level of impairment.

.

[Rupert]

Would I be "out of my element" if I agreed with him?

Well you clearly don't agree with him, so it's a bit of a moot point, but if you did, no, you would be idiot.

My limit is two. I know for a fact that won't get me even within spitting distance of .08, but I personally feel it's irresponsible for a driver to have any level of impairment.

[bing_oh]

But you don't.

Well you clearly don't agree with him, so it's a bit of a moot point, but if you did, no, you would be idiot.

I do agree with him that many drunk drivers actually believe stupid things like they're "ok to drive" or "they drive better/are more careful when they've had a few beers." And I also agree with him that people are particularly good at making bad decisions. Quite a few drunk drivers actually do legitimately believe...or say that they believe...that they're not too drunk to drive.

[AutobahnSHO]

I personally feel it's irresponsible for a driver to have any level of impairment.

THIS.

And the way people drive, I shudder and cringe to think that y'all think it's ok that those around you drive "somewhat" buzzed.

[AutobahnSHO]

Quite a few drunk drivers actually do legitimately believe...or say that they believe...that they're not too drunk to drive.

MOST of them think everything will turn out ok if they drive after drinking.

[AutobahnSHO]

You're out of your element.

If everyone thought the same as me, no more drunk driving deaths/accidents.

[Soup DeVille]

If everyone thought the same as me...

Now there's an idea that will drive me to drinkin'

[AutobahnSHO]

Now there's an idea that will drive me to drinkin'

how bout just this one issue??? 

[Tave]

Tave said that he believes that lower per se BAC limits lead to more DUI arrests. The statistical numbers for the last 30 years contradict that.

I never made a claim about arrest rates. To clear up any confusion, I was speaking more in terms of criminalizing the behavior.

...
So, that establishes your timeline for the lowering of per se BAC levels across the country, as well as showing a decline in DUI arrests since 1983...all despite those lowered BAC limits. Dispute it all you like, but the numbers disagree with your assertion that lower per se BAC limits are "making criminals out of an extremely large portion of the populous."

Well at least those second set of numbers you quoted actually say what you think they do. It still doesn't move the ball in terms of causal factors, and interestingly enough contradicts your earlier statistics.

[GoCougs]

Even after just one stiff pint I feel it enough that I do not want to drive, and I'm nowhere near 0.08%. It doesn't take much - the thing I've noticed is that I can get a bit confused or not pay attention as much.

[bing_oh]

Even after just one stiff pint I feel it enough that I do not want to drive, and I'm nowhere near 0.08%. It doesn't take much - the thing I've noticed is that I can get a bit confused or not pay attention as much.

What the Standardized Field Sobriety Tests primarily check is what are called "divided attention skills"...the ability to do multiple simple tasks simultaneously. Basically, we're talking about the normal multitasking that we do pretty much without thinking while driving. Alcohol (and other central nervous system depressants) impair those abilities. Someone who is under the influence can (sometimes) concentrate on and do one task ok, but cannot do two or three simple tasks at the same time.

[FoMoJo]

My limit is two. I know for a fact that won't get me even within spitting distance of .08, but I personally feel it's irresponsible for a driver to have any level of impairment.

Various forms of impairment.  Some eat so much it depletes the blood supply to their brain. 

[Tave]

Or talking/texting on a phone, which is more dangerous than borderline BAC cases but treated as a civil infraction in a lot of jurisdictions.

Or driving while sleepy, driving with a car-full of screaming kids, driving while experiencing severe emotional distress, etc., etc., etc... (and those aren't even infractions).

[AutobahnSHO]

Or talking/texting on a phone, which is more dangerous than borderline BAC cases but treated as a civil infraction in a lot of jurisdictions.

Or driving while sleepy, driving with a car-full of screaming kids, driving while experiencing severe emotional distress, etc., etc., etc... (and those aren't even infractions).

Exactly- one should focus on driving when driving.

[12,000 RPM]

What the Standardized Field Sobriety Tests primarily check is what are called "divided attention skills"...the ability to do multiple simple tasks simultaneously. Basically, we're talking about the normal multitasking that we do pretty much without thinking while driving. Alcohol (and other central nervous system depressants) impair those abilities. Someone who is under the influence can (sometimes) concentrate on and do one task ok, but cannot do two or three simple tasks at the same time.

Seems like flawed logic. When I drive- sober or not- I tend to drive with the radio off and focus 100% on the task of driving. Multitasking while driving is no bueno sober or not and the ability to multitask doesn't seem to be a relevant measure of how well one can drive....

[GoCougs]

Various forms of impairment.  Some eat so much it depletes the blood supply to their brain. 

Or talking/texting on a phone, which is more dangerous than borderline BAC cases but treated as a civil infraction in a lot of jurisdictions.

Or driving while sleepy, driving with a car-full of screaming kids, driving while experiencing severe emotional distress, etc., etc., etc... (and those aren't even infractions).

The issues here are measurable/objective levels causation and detectability. Texting is sorta there but the others don't really qualify save for seeing the end result (poor driving, wreck).

[bing_oh]

Seems like flawed logic. When I drive- sober or not- I tend to drive with the radio off and focus 100% on the task of driving. Multitasking while driving is no bueno sober or not and the ability to multitask doesn't seem to be a relevant measure of how well one can drive....

Really? You multitask every day when you drive...it's a requirement of the task. You steer with your hands, control gas and brake (and maybe clutch) with your feet, you have to think about navigation, operate various other required controls (turn signals, gear shift, cruise control, headlights, windshield wipers, etc), watch and react to your surroundings like weather conditions, road conditions, obstructions, pedestrians, wildlife, other drivers, etc. That's multitasking and it's what we do when we drive. If you can't multitask safely, you shouldn't be behind the wheel.

[AutobahnSHO]

Just staying in the lane and keeping speed constant is beyond some people.

Sober.

[12,000 RPM]

Really? You multitask every day when you drive...it's a requirement of the task. You steer with your hands, control gas and brake (and maybe clutch) with your feet, you have to think about navigation, operate various other required controls (turn signals, gear shift, cruise control, headlights, windshield wipers, etc), watch and react to your surroundings like weather conditions, road conditions, obstructions, pedestrians, wildlife, other drivers, etc. That's multitasking and it's what we do when we drive. If you can't multitask safely, you shouldn't be behind the wheel.

Do breathing and blinking count as tasks too?

All the things you listed are sub tasks under the single task of driving. By this logic, shit like texting should be no problem- just another task to manage, right?- as something like turning your windshield wipers on requires some high level of attention/concentration.

No, I think metrics measuring things like awareness, coordination & reaction times are a much better indicator of one's level of intoxication and ability to drive.

[bing_oh]

Do breathing and blinking count as tasks too?

All the things you listed are sub tasks under the single task of driving. By this logic, shit like texting should be no problem- just another task to manage, right?- as something like turning your windshield wipers on requires some high level of attention/concentration.

I never said they were particularly difficult or complex tasks...things that the human brain can multitask rarely are. Of course, the things that are asked from a person during the SFST's are also not complex tasks...comprehending and following directions, balance, and counting are all things that most of us have been doing since we were little kids. Yet, they are different tasks that different parts of the brain and different functional systems engage to accomplish them...as are the small tasks you do when you drive. Like it or not, you are multitasking when you drive.

No, I think metrics measuring things like awareness, coordination & reaction times are a much better indicator of one's level of intoxication and ability to drive.

If you know so much about human physiology and intoxication, perhaps you should develop and approach the NHTSA with a new set of SFST's.

[12,000 RPM]

I never said they were particularly difficult or complex tasks...things that the human brain can multitask rarely are. Of course, the things that are asked from a person during the SFST's are also not complex tasks...comprehending and following directions, balance, and counting are all things that most of us have been doing since we were little kids. Yet, they are different tasks that different parts of the brain and different functional systems engage to accomplish them...as are the small tasks you do when you drive. Like it or not, you are multitasking when you drive.

If you know so much about human physiology and intoxication, perhaps you should develop and approach the NHTSA with a new set of SFST's.

STRAWMAN ALERT Questioning the value of assessing one's ability to "multitask" in the context of checking intoxication is hardly a claim of expertise in anything. Not surprised you take a question of authority as an ATTACK on authority though, thats your thing. Heres how silly that "multitasking" thing is though... A drunk college kid can mack on a doe eyed sorority pledge, play a game of beer pong and rap along with a song in the background without missing a beat... doesn't mean they should be behind the wheel of a car. Meanwhile there are folks who can barely walk and talk sober. So yea I question the value of that line of testing. Even with that, you still cant issue a DUI without breathalyzing which shows how much the NHTSA actually values SFSTs. But why would you ever question anything you are told to do thats not a threat to your power?

[bing_oh]

STRAWMAN ALERT Questioning the value of assessing one's ability to "multitask" in the context of checking intoxication is hardly a claim of expertise in anything. Not surprised you take a question of authority as an ATTACK on authority though, thats your thing. Heres how silly that "multitasking" thing is though... A drunk college kid can mack on a doe eyed sorority pledge, play a game of beer pong and rap along with a song in the background without missing a beat... doesn't mean they should be behind the wheel of a car. Meanwhile there are folks who can barely walk and talk sober. So yea I question the value of that line of testing. Even with that, you still cant issue a DUI without breathalyzing which shows how much the NHTSA actually values SFSTs. But why would you ever question anything you are told to do thats not a threat to your power?

Wtf are you talking about?