Ford building the SUV you want… but you can't have it

[Payman]

IMO, FWD + based on car chassis = crossover.

So the base fwd Cherokee is a crossover, but the exact same vehicle in 4wd is an SUV? Why not call it a minivan? Station wagon? 5 door hatchback?

[MX793]

So the base fwd Cherokee is a crossover, but the exact same vehicle in 4wd is an SUV? Why not call it a minivan? Station wagon? 5 door hatchback?

I consider the entire Cherokee line to be crossovers.

[Raza]

First day of hunting season is practically a holiday here.  I deal with suppliers in Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan and it's pretty much the same there as well.

Depends on where.  Here, it's nothing.  Out where I went to school, people would take off for the first day of bear season.  They'd have signs on the highway.  Watch for bears...running from people shooting at them.

[Rupert]

So the base fwd Cherokee is a crossover, but the exact same vehicle in 4wd is an SUV? Why not call it a minivan? Station wagon? 5 door hatchback?

FWD based, so all of the Cherokee line is a crossover.

[Payman]

FWD based, so all of the Cherokee line is a crossover.

Nope.

[veeman]

As everyone has stated, there's a reason why the Nissan Pathfinder went from an SUV to a raised station wagon.  People didn't buy it.  The "problem" is that they're just too many finely paved roads in the U.S.  For those who hunt, a raised station wagon will do just fine because a finely paved road will take you to the edge of the woods where upon you will disembark and by foot go and hunt.  People generally don't shoot game from their car via an open window.

There are those who tow boats and campers and horse trailers and stuff.  Usually I see them being towed by pick up trucks though, not off-road worthy jeeps, land rovers, and x-terras.  Decked out quad cab pick ups are where its at for rich folk to tow their yachts. 

This Ford is a great SUV.  But it's paved road going manners won't be as good as a Ford Edge or Ford Explorer.  For off-road enthusiasts or those who want to be perceived as such, Jeep has got a big chunk of that market and it'll be hard for this truck to compete against such an entrenched off-road brand. 

[ifcar]

As everyone has stated, there's a reason why the Nissan Pathfinder went from an SUV to a raised station wagon.  People didn't buy it.  The "problem" is that they're just too many finely paved roads in the U.S.  For those who hunt, a raised station wagon will do just fine because a finely paved road will take you to the edge of the woods where upon you will disembark and by foot go and hunt.  People generally don't shoot game from their car via an open window.

There are those who tow boats and campers and horse trailers and stuff.  Usually I see them being towed by pick up trucks though, not off-road worthy jeeps, land rovers, and x-terras.  Decked out quad cab pick ups are where its at for rich folk to tow their yachts. 

This Ford is a great SUV.  But it's paved road going manners won't be as good as a Ford Edge or Ford Explorer.  For off-road enthusiasts or those who want to be perceived as such, Jeep has got a big chunk of that market and it'll be hard for this truck to compete against such an entrenched off-road brand. 

Agreed.

It's possible that Ford could get some traction by introducing this SUV firmly in the niche category, especially with the understanding that demand would vary pretty heavily by region, but there's no way it would outright replace any of Ford's wildly successful crossovers -- the ones that combined sell to something like 500,000 single moms in apartments or whatever every year.

[Madman]

Ford building the SUV you want... but you can't have it.

It's the greatest amusement park ever, and you can't come!!!!  Especially you, Stan and Kyle.

[2o6]

Nope.

The Cherokee is clearly a Dart, and uses Dart Powertrains, Dart Platform, Dart Floorpan, and pretty much Fiat everything.


The 4WD is nifty, and the car is still incredibly capable off road (probably the most capable crossover under 35K), but ;et's get this straight. At the end of the day, it started life as Dodge Dart. (Really, they took the Fiat Bravo Chassis and made it wider)



Unless you're getting the Grand Cherokee and Cherokee confused....

Yes, but fwd and unibody does not automatically make it a crossover. Most unibody SUVs are indeed based on heavily modified car platforms. It's cost effective and more efficient than body on frame construction. Crossovers are exclusively based on lightly modified car platforms, and don't have the off-road features that an SUV has... Think Ford Flex vs Ford Explorer. I don't think any car magazine or industry expert would ever call the Discovery a crossover.

The Explorer is definitely a Crossover. Same with the GM LAMBDA Cars (Traverse, Enclave.) The Explorer actually uses a modified variant of the old Taurus X/Freestyle chassis, which is shared with the Ford Flex, and started life on the Volvo S80. The GM Lambda platform, IIRC has a lot of roots in GM Epsilon (Malibu and Kin).

You can especially tell the Epsilon/Lambda Link in the crossovers. The way the engine/trans is mated and secured in the two platforms are incredibly similar.

[Payman]

The Cherokee is clearly a Dart, and uses Dart Powertrains, Dart Platform, Dart Floorpan, and pretty much Fiat everything.


The 4WD is nifty, and the car is still incredibly capable off road (probably the most capable crossover under 35K), but ;et's get this straight. At the end of the day, it started life as Dodge Dart. (Really, they took the Fiat Bravo Chassis and made it wider)



Unless you're getting the Grand Cherokee and Cherokee confused....



The Explorer is definitely a Crossover. Same with the GM LAMBDA Cars (Traverse, Enclave.) The Explorer actually uses a modified variant of the old Taurus X/Freestyle chassis, which is shared with the Ford Flex, and started life on the Volvo S80. The GM Lambda platform, IIRC has a lot of roots in GM Epsilon (Malibu and Kin).

You can especially tell the Epsilon/Lambda Link in the crossovers. The way the engine/trans is mated and secured in the two platforms are incredibly similar.

No, it's just a definition thing between crossover and SUV. A crossover is always based on a car platform, and retains car driving qualities with light off road ability. An SUV may be car based (most are these days) but is engineered with heavier off road and towing capabilities. Most (including car magazines) still call the Cherokee an SUV, because of it's a capable offroader. Sure, the base fwd model has the attributes of a crossover, but the Trailhawk definitely has the attributes of an SUV. The entire line is better called an SUV than crossover.

[hotrodalex]

Crossovers can still go offroad and be capable in some trims.

[r0tor]

disco sport is a crossover

Both will haul 5+2kids , have turbo 4 bangers, and off road credibility... Any reason not to compare them?

[MX793]

Crossovers can still go offroad and be capable in some trims.

And as Top Gear has demonstrated, regular old passenger cars can handle off-road terrain far better than most would expect.

[Payman]

And as Top Gear has demonstrated, regular old passenger cars can handle off-road terrain far better than most would expect.

I want a Skoda Yeti.

[ifcar]

No, it's just a definition thing between crossover and SUV. A crossover is always based on a car platform, and retains car driving qualities with light off road ability. An SUV may be car based (most are these days) but is engineered with heavier off road and towing capabilities. Most (including car magazines) still call the Cherokee an SUV, because of it's a capable offroader. Sure, the base fwd model has the attributes of a crossover, but the Trailhawk definitely has the attributes of an SUV. The entire line is better called an SUV than crossover.

"The All-New 2014 Jeep® Cherokee is a compact crossover CUV that delivers superior on-road and all-weather performance, user-friendly connectivity and a high level of standard equipment."

http://www.jeep.com/en/crossover/

[Payman]

I'm man enough to know when to back out of a losing argument.  I still refuse to call it a crossover though.

[SVT666]

They're all SUV's to me.

[12,000 RPM]

Not for towing, offroading, hunting, etc

Aint nobody got time (or money) fo dat

[Soup DeVille]

Aint nobody got time (or money) fo dat

Funny, as I'm reading this watching the northbound traffic along i-75 right now, and probably around 50% of the traffic is towing a trailer or RV of some kind: getting ready for the start of Deer season is a big deal around here for a lot of people.

[Soup DeVille]

And as Top Gear has demonstrated, regular old passenger cars can handle off-road terrain far better than most would expect.

Not many of those cars seemed to last the episode.

[Rupert]

My family drove passenger cars around the woods for years when I grew up. Citation, Taurus, LeSabre. All horrible, but all got us where we were going 99% of the time. Not sure it's possible now, with the much smaller road maintenance budgets.

[Rupert]

For those who hunt, a raised station wagon will do just fine because a finely paved road will take you to the edge of the woods where upon you will disembark and by foot go and hunt.  People generally don't shoot game from their car via an open window.

HA! I see yayhoos all the time pretty much shooting from their rig, and especially ATVs. Redneck yayhoos hate walking.

Really, though, in most places, the roads hunters use aren't paved.

[Payman]

Looks like this is the new Bronco.

[giant_mtb]

But seriously, check out these off-road specs

Just about 9" of ground clearance and stubby bumpers allow for an impressive 29º approach, 25º departing, and 21º ramp-breakover angle. Water-wading is even wilder; the diesel versions can press on through streams up to 31.5" deep.

Ford's Terrain Management System (TMS) has four distinct settings for optimizing the vehicle's configuration between "everyday roads, snow, sand (allows some wheelspin to carry momentum, late upshifts, early downshifts, increased pedal sensitivity), and extreme rocky terrain (reduced throttle sensitivity, mitigates wheelspin)."

The 4WD system with low range has an electronically locking differential, and is paired with a descent control that locks the torque converter to provide engine braking downhill. None of that "just hitting the brakes for you" bullshit.

And of course, Ford's delightful digital "pitch and roll" gauge on the dash to show you how much the SUV is tipping.

"The 4WD system with low range has an electronically locking differential, and is paired with a descent control that locks the torque converter to provide engine braking downhill. None of that "just hitting the brakes for you" bullshit."

What?  Low range is all about engine braking.  Are there 4x4s with "low range" that just stab the brakes or something?

[Rupert]

LOL, I skimmed through the thread, veeman's post that I replied to in 2014 caught my eye, and I was just about to reply to it, when I saw:

HA! I see yayhoos all the time pretty much shooting from their rig, and especially ATVs. Redneck yayhoos hate walking.

Really, though, in most places, the roads hunters use aren't paved.

Which is just about exactly what I was going to say.

[Rupert]

I'm pretty skeptical of 4WD systems that have modes like sand and mud and such. I suppose they're fine for most people (probably the vast majority, actually). I suppose as long as I can lock the front and rear together, have a low range, and really turn off traction control, it's all good. The Explorer that the engineer drives at work doesn't do that though, it just has modes.

[Rupert]

"The 4WD system with low range has an electronically locking differential, and is paired with a descent control that locks the torque converter to provide engine braking downhill. None of that "just hitting the brakes for you" bullshit."

What?  Low range is all about engine braking.  Are there 4x4s with "low range" that just stab the brakes or something?

It sounds like some hill descent controls are just hitting the brakes. I think 4 low is still 4 low.

[giant_mtb]

Just sounds like a bunch of unnecessary shit to fail or break later on.  What the hell is wrong with a good ol' 4WD with real low range that does everything computers can do without the hassle and complexity of computer bullshit...?

Oh, right, these vehicles will never be driven by anybody who drives off road on any sort of regular basis.  aka n00btastic 4WD.

[Eye of the Tiger]

This is where Honda's Real Time 4WD™ beats the rest. No silly electronics, just dual hydraulic pumps, a clutch, a ball cam, some spinning gears and shafts. Low range? That's what first gear is for. And don't worry, the 4WD doesn't work under braking or over a certain speed.

[2o6]

This is where Honda's Real Time 4WD™ beats the rest. No silly electronics, just dual hydraulic pumps, a clutch, a ball cam, some spinning gears and shafts. Low range? That's what first gear is for. And don't worry, the 4WD doesn't work under braking or over a certain speed.

Or when you let off the accelerator


Or go backwards