CTS-V

[FoMoJo]

1993 was, uh, more than 20 years ago. GM learned and killed it with the new Camaro - upon debut it was a decade beyond the S197, it helped revive the company, and it bested the Mustang in sales for 5 yeas straight.

GM and Chrylser V8s, despite their anachronistic pooprod valve train, are smaller, less complicated and more powerful vs. Ford V8s. This is unarguable .

If you consider 16 bits of metal poking through the head and making holes where they shouldn't be as well as causing valves to be placed in less than ideal positions while at the same time inhibiting useful rpms less complicated, well, it's just old tech.  That, when introducing VVT and discovering that cam phasing on their single cam acting on all valves simultaneously was 80% as efficient as DOHC with cam phasing on each cam controlling, separately, the intake and exhaust valves on each bank, they just shrugged and said, well, it's good enough for us...and we know our fan base will lap it up and say, see, see, see...

[Eye of the Tiger]

I think they should bring back pooprods in I4s
The Iron Duke was one hell of a motor.

[GoCougs]

GM won the V8 wars the last ~20 years - there is no argument: LS3, LT1, LT4 and LS7 in sum total are simply better than what Ford has done and is doing. The hopes riding on the new GT350 mill are big - to equal the ten-year-old LS7 it'll have to be at least 550 hp to offset its greater size, weight and complexity. Mopar has risen recently what with the 485 hp Scat Pack and 707 hp Hellcat motors, but then again they're still saddled with iron blocks, so, though good showing, and better than Ford, still not quite up to GM snuff.

These attempts at gas lighting are interesting, admirable even, but my fear is it's ultimately destructive to purveyors.

[SVT666]

GM won the V8 wars the last ~20 years - there is no argument: LS3, LT1, LT4 and LS7 in sum total are simply better than what Ford has done and is doing. The hopes riding on the new GT350 mill are big - to equal the ten-year-old LS7 it'll have to be at least 550 hp to offset its greater size, weight and complexity. Mopar has risen recently what with the 485 hp Scat Pack and 707 hp Hellcat motors, but then again they're still saddled with iron blocks, so, though good showing, and better than Ford, still not quite up to GM snuff.

These attempts at gas lighting are interesting, admirable even, but my fear is it's ultimately destructive to purveyors.

It's amazing how you ignore facts.

[FoMoJo]

GM won the V8 wars the last ~20 years - there is no argument: LS3, LT1, LT4 and LS7 in sum total are simply better than what Ford has done and is doing. The hopes riding on the new GT350 mill are big - to equal the ten-year-old LS7 it'll have to be at least 550 hp to offset its greater size, weight and complexity. Mopar has risen recently what with the 485 hp Scat Pack and 707 hp Hellcat motors, but then again they're still saddled with iron blocks, so, though good showing, and better than Ford, still not quite up to GM snuff.

These attempts at gas lighting are interesting, admirable even, but my fear is it's ultimately destructive to purveyors.

That you consider elephants and rats from the golden era better than the FE 427, it's really not at all surprising that you are so confused about the more contemporary offerings from the "Big 2 1/2".

[hotrodalex]

Why does the aftermarket prefer LS motors over Ford's "superior" tech?

[MX793]

Why does the aftermarket prefer LS motors over Ford's "superior" tech?

Because the Chevy smallblock has been around since the 1950s and the Mod V8 has only been around since the 90s (and the Coyote since the 2010s)?  The Ford Windsor, which debuted around the same time as the SBC, has a massive aftermarket comparable to the SBC.

[SVT666]

Why does the aftermarket prefer LS motors over Ford's "superior" tech?

Mustang has the largest aftermarket of any car in history.

[FoMoJo]

Why does the aftermarket prefer LS motors over Ford's "superior" tech?

Depends on the level of aftermarket.  Back-yard-Bubba loves his SBC.  Koenigsegg went for the 4.6 modular when he wanted to build his supercar.  Same with Panoz when building their track and sports cars.  Historically, this has been true with Ford.  They are far more race oriented with a bit less attention to the street; although their street engines have always benefited from their track experience.  I'd like to see them get back into that mode with a bit more enthusiasm.  I'm hoping that their Voodoo engine is an indication of this.

A bit of interesting folklore concerning the SBC during the hotrod era.  The SBC came out at about the same time as the Ford Y-block.  Due to the design of the Y-block, deep skirt, oil sump at the front vs. SBC, no skirt, oil sump at the back, the SBC fit between the frame rails of a 32 Ford coupe with much less pain than the Y-block...plus they were cheap as dirt in any scrap yard.

[GoCougs]

Because the Chevy smallblock has been around since the 1950s and the Mod V8 has only been around since the 90s (and the Coyote since the 2010s)?  The Ford Windsor, which debuted around the same time as the SBC, has a massive aftermarket comparable to the SBC.

The SBC aftermarket is far far far larger than the Windsor aftermarket though. Putting SBC rods and valves in a Windsor is common, and plenty of Ford-based hot rods, kit cars and race cars have SBCs. The reverse virtually never happens.

Three factors weigh in. First, SBC was a better motor than the Windsor - longer rods, bigger valves, bigger ports, more robust bottom end in 4-bolt guise. Second, Chevy sold more small-block vehicles than Ford. Third, the SBC had a greater degree of interchangeability - it maintained the same firing order in all guises, heads can be swapped around, and it had the same bell housing as the big block Chevy (and what helped set the SBC aftermarket on fire was beginning in the '80s putting a 400 crank in a 350 to make a 383).

[GoCougs]

Why does the aftermarket prefer LS motors over Ford's "superior" tech?

Well, the aftermarket is teeny tiny compared to selling cars new. But point taken - the LS is simply a better motor - more power, smaller, lighter, less complicated.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Mustang has the largest aftermarket of any car in history.

Beetle?

[Soup DeVille]

I am of the opinion that the Windsor makes a better 5 liter engine than any of the Chevy or GM 305s and 307s ever did; but the 351 was always inferior to the Chevy 350.

Hot rod guys, being unconcerned about displacement, or simply wanting more of it, don't care. 

[Soup DeVille]

Beetle?

Not much new developed for the real Beetle over the last thirty years.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Not much new developed for the real Beetle over the last thirty years.

Chevy pickup?

[GoCougs]

Hey Cougs, since you are such a GM man, why not an ATS 3.6 to replace the G? Is the ATS available with AWD?

I'm not really a GM man. After ~15 years of Japanese car ownership buying American again would be tough. Plus, the ATS 3.6 doesn't have the performance of what I'd be looking for, including either DSG or M/T.

[12,000 RPM]

GM won the V8 wars the last ~20 years - there is no argument: LS3, LT1, LT4 and LS7 in sum total are simply better than what Ford has done and is doing. The hopes riding on the new GT350 mill are big - to equal the ten-year-old LS7 it'll have to be at least 550 hp to offset its greater size, weight and complexity. Mopar has risen recently what with the 485 hp Scat Pack and 707 hp Hellcat motors, but then again they're still saddled with iron blocks, so, though good showing, and better than Ford, still not quite up to GM snuff.

Good thing theres more to these cars than engines

[Soup DeVille]

Chevy pickup?

Yeah; that's a good possibility. 

[SVT666]

I'm pretty sure SEMA named the Ford Mustang as the most modified car in history.

[SVT666]

Getting back on topic though...the more I look at this CTS-V the more I like it. Too bad the ATS-V is saddled with a turbo 6, an LS7 ATS-V would have been perfect.

[Rich]

What are they calling the gt350 engine?

I'd have liked that in a stock looking ATS. Dunno if enough engine bay room.

[SVT666]

GT350 engine is called "Voodoo".

[12,000 RPM]

I don't think he was talking about the 2015 model in particular.  Rather, Ford's entire high performance strategy being built on the Mustang.  GM has the Camaro (pony/musclecar), the SS (muscle sedan), Corvette (sports car), ATS-V (small premium coupe/sedan), and CTS-V (midsize premium super sedan).  Dodge/Chrysler have the Challenger (musclecar), Charger (muscle sedan), 300 (premium muscle sedan), Viper (sports/exotic), JGC SRT (super SUV).  Including the Italian parent of Chrysler, they also have the semi-exotic 4C and 500 Abarth sport compact.

Ford has no sports car.  They have no muscle sedan.  They have no premium/luxury performance vehicles.  They have 2 sport compacts, a super truck, and various incarnations of Mustang.  To their credit, they are the only domestic branded sport compact and the only factory hi-po performance truck (domestic or import) on the market.  But they haven't the breadth of performance offerings that the other domestics do.

I may be biased, but Ford's performance lineup is more relevant to me than the others. The Fiesta/Focus ST are excellent and world class, and are within the reach of the working man who doesn't want to borrow from his 401K to buy a performance car. You already know how I feel about Cadillac... the value just isn't there, and the sales/transactions show it.

If there's two things Ford needs IMO, it would be a performance sedan badged by Lincoln based on the Mustang, with the 2.3L, the V8, and a hybrid option, and maybe a cheap 2 seat sports car again based on the Mustang reviving the Thunderbird name. Outside of that.... i.e. large performance sedans, performance SUVs ( ), Ford doesn't need it. Theres a reason Chrysler dumped the 300C SRT-8... too much overlap.

[FoMoJo]

The SBC aftermarket is far far far larger than the Windsor aftermarket though. Putting SBC rods and valves in a Windsor is common, and plenty of Ford-based hot rods, kit cars and race cars have SBCs. The reverse virtually never happens.

Three factors weigh in. First, SBC was a better motor than the Windsor - longer rods, bigger valves, bigger ports, more robust bottom end in 4-bolt guise. Second, Chevy sold more small-block vehicles than Ford. Third, the SBC had a greater degree of interchangeability - it maintained the same firing order in all guises, heads can be swapped around, and it had the same bell housing as the big block Chevy (and what helped set the SBC aftermarket on fire was beginning in the '80s putting a 400 crank in a 350 to make a 383).

...and yet the Windsor prevailed on the track in various forms including winning the 1965 World Sportscar Championship in 289 form as well as prevailing for several years in the Indy series with another version of the 260 small block and then there was the Trans AM series where, admittedly, Chevy produced some admirable competition.  Versions of the Windsor, were capable of easily producing 500 bhp and with some internal upgrading could produce 700 bhp.  They were the little jewel in the collection of rough stones of that era, and found a place in many of the "hybrids" from England and Italy.  And though the SBC was proliferate on the street, quantity is never a measure of quality.

[SVT666]

I may be biased, but Ford's performance lineup is more relevant to me than the others. The Fiesta/Focus ST are excellent and world class, and are within the reach of the working man who doesn't want to borrow from his 401K to buy a performance car. You already know how I feel about Cadillac... the value just isn't there, and the sales/transactions show it.

If there's two things Ford needs IMO, it would be a performance sedan badged by Lincoln based on the Mustang, with the 2.3L, the V8, and a hybrid option, and maybe a cheap 2 seat sports car again based on the Mustang reviving the Thunderbird name. Outside of that.... i.e. large performance sedans, performance SUVs ( ), Ford doesn't need it. Theres a reason Chrysler dumped the 300C SRT-8... too much overlap.

So Lincoln should do what Cadillac shouldn't?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

So Lincoln should do what Cadillac shouldn't?

[12,000 RPM]

So Lincoln should do what Cadillac shouldn't?

Lincoln wouldn't be doing what Cadillac did. Lincoln wouldn't be creating a new platform and staking its whole future on these cars. Lincoln wouldn't come out with a sport sedan without having a full array of current CUVs, which are the segments of growth, first. Etc. etc. A car like the MKC is much more relevant and important in today's market than something like an ATS. Ford already has all the pieces together, and could do it all better than Caddy IMO (Americans want cheap V8s), so in the context of a performance lineup that seems like an easy win.

[SVT666]

They would still be building a car you said Cadillac shouldn't build.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

The CTS-V configurator is up.
http://www.cadillac.com/v-series/2016-cts-v-sedan.html

[68_427]

I wish they'd given the ATS-V sedan the wider track of the coupe